LOAD WORKUP--> Powder, or Gun?

[Vettepilot555]

So, I've never seen this addressed/discussed, though it most probably has been somewhere...

I have a question about load workup, that is particularly of interest now with the near impossibility of obtaining reloading components.

I am unclear on a point. I understand that powder manufacturers supply powders to the ammo companies that hits a somewhat broad spectrum of the burn rate, density, etc., of what the ammo company needs for a given load. The ammo company then tests that delivery, and works up a load using it, that should theoretically be safe in all applicable guns.

Then, there's us reloaders and handloaders. They supply powders to us that more stringently meet the burn rate, density, etc., of the particular name and type of powder. They of course realize we don't have the labratories and sophisticated test equipment that the ammo companies do, and need powders that are more tightly adherent to the desired specs.

HOWEVER....

There are still lot to lot variances in the powders, and we are vehemently and clearly warned to work up new loads in our guns for each new lot of powder we might happen to buy.

BUT, I frequently hear, and read, that this load, or that load is safe in MY gun; you must work up a load IN YOUR OWN GUN!

Well, a SAAMI chamber is a SAAMI chamber, is a SAAMI chamber no?? (Yes, I realize there are gun to gun differences for many reasons.)

But really, which is it we are working up loads for; lot to lot powder differences, or gun differences??

Now before you quickly say "Both!", consider that the ammo companies do loads with high performance, that work in all guns!

Just as an example, I recently did a load workup using a new bottle of Hodgdon 335 in my 223 Wylde rifle, and it turned out to be safe at the book max load. Wouldn't it be logical to think that load would also be safe in my daughter's 556 gun??

Don't worry, I will do a load workup in her gun as well, and already have loaded the rounds to do so, but I would nearly bet money the max load of this lot of powder will also be safe in her gun.

But what of my question?

In advance, thanks for any contributions to my in depth and ongoing handloading education!!

Vettepilot

 

[LOLBELL]

I don’t have enough knowledge or experience to contribute but have wondered that same thing.

 

[earlthegoat2]

Right now, there is no load data for 450 Bushmaster in bolt action rifles. It is all tailored to ARs. Virtually all factory ammunition is made for use in ARs. I know of one custom ammo manufacturer that makes 450 loads for bolt guns only and it involves a 275 gr Barnes bullet going 2200 FPS which is probably still on the low end of what a typical 450 bolt gun can handle. I don’t know for sure but I suspect the same is true for 6.5 Grendel and anything else that was originally developed primarily for ARs.

For my logic, published max 450 Bushmaster loads are STARTING loads for 450 BM in bolt actions. Yeah, conventional wisdom says to work up from published minimums but we know bolt actions like the Ruger American and the countless customs out there can take much more pressure than an AR.

 

[Mk-211]

It's all about CYA!

People say that it works in their firearm but you should work up to it. It's just so that if you make a mistake or something happens, they told you to work up to it. CYA

Just remember that and you'll be okay. Be safe, have fun and load up your stuff, fire and repeat!

 

[AJC1]

Working up loads are exactly what you said in many more words. Is random joe bob using a good scale. Is ricky shooting an unknown antique 7.7 from his deceased grandfather's basement. Does Simon know the difference between monos and cup and core bullets. Way to many unknowns. The system is designed to be as safe as possible minimizing risk in a sea of risk.

 

[FROGO207]

If you haven't run into this problem yet I own a 30-06 that will blow primers at published starting loads using using IMR4350 and WC 846 . Had I just loaded to max and shot it what would hav happened?? The factory will make a round that will be safe to shoot in anything commercially made. That often will be a low velocity inaccurate round safe for the weakest actions. The reloading manuals offer a range of safe loads that worked in their test rigs with those particular componants that particular day. Different batches of ANY of those componants can/will produce different results so the need to work up. My reason to want to work up along with safety is to find max accuracy. Seldom is it at max load I find. YMMV

 

[Vettepilot555]

Let me re-phrase my question. Let's say I have 3 AR's in 223/556. Then let's say I buy a fresh bottle of "Whizbang2020" powder. This lot of powder is new to me, so I must work up new loads for it in case it's a bit "hot".

So I do so in "Gun 1". Would the same load be safe in guns 2 and 3?? They tell us no, not necessarily. But then how, HOW, do the factories load for high performance in any gun??

I don't buy the idea that the factories load low for two reasons. One, to do so would be non-competitive, and two, sometimes we reloaders have difficulties matching their velocities. So how do they load ammo that is safe in any gun? How could we do the same, and save components??

Vettepilot

 

[ev780]

Let me re-phrase my question. Let's say I have 3 AR's in 223/556. Then let's say I buy a fresh bottle of "Whizbang2020" powder. This lot of powder is new to me, so I must work up new loads for it in case it's a bit "hot".

So I do so in "Gun 1". Would the same load be safe in guns 2 and 3?? They tell us no, not necessarily. But then how, HOW, do the factories load for high performance in any gun??

I don't buy the idea that the factories load low for two reasons. One, to do so would be non-competitive, and two, sometimes we reloaders have difficulties matching their velocities. So how do they load ammo that is safe in any gun? How could we do the same, and save components??

Vettepilot

Depends on your level of analness!

I have several loads worked up for .45ACP for different purposes. Shoot them across all my guns even in different platforms. I don't rework anything just because I have a different lot of some component. Fresh bottle of powder comes off the shelf and the progressive press rolls on.

My competition loads get some special attention from time to time. A little revalidation work that almost never results in any changes.

My lesser used calibers like 9 & 357 have loads that work for me and I feed them to all my different guns. I also small base size and trim my .223 to get it close to SAAMI so it works in all my guns.

Now in the bullseye or precision rifle world, if you want to be competitive, every thing is tuned to that barrel. I have just started dipping a toe into this pool and it is a deep one.

 

[PapaG]

I have never been one to "work" loads up to maximum. I also have only a couple of rifles for the same cartridge. My loads for them are mild enough that I don't worry about safety. For top accuracy I do work up.
My handguns, I generally don't load anywhere near max except on the little guys where a couple tenths might get me there.
M feeling is, if you are going for max, work up.

 

[bigpower491]

The only thing I can contribute to this thread are some of my chrono observations.
Most(not all) of the factory ammo I've ever shot thru the chrony were well off the velocity mark.....federal 300 win, 180gr hi shok. Advertise velocity:2960 fps......chrony velocity, thru a 26" barrel, 2875.
I've only had a couple boxes that ever came close. So I reckon that could be one of the reasons people have difficulty duplicating factory advertised velocity....most goobers don't own a chrony to be able to check the factory numbers.
I personally think the factory ammo is loaded to lower pressure than they would have you believe.
I see the 450 Bush came up in this thread. I got a couple boxes when I bought that rifle last fall.
The box says 2200 fps with 16" bbl. If I get a chance, I'll set up the chrony this weekend and run a couple out of 22" bbl

 

[reddog81]

Factories can develop loads for the tightest chamber, determine exact pressure range, and replicate that load using the same components over and over again. It's much harder for me to do that.

If you develop a load using a well worn chamber, brass with a slightly different capacity, and then try and use that load in a different gun you'll get different results. Do those differences matter? Maybe, Maybe Not...

 

[Vettepilot555]

Well, I certainly agree that one rarely sees the velocity shown on the ammo box. But then I have read numerous articles comparing factory loads to their handloads, whereby they struggled to match what the factory rounds actually shot, and were on the ragged edge of pressure if/when they got there.

I generally don't bother to chrono factory ammo, and rarely shoot it; instead relying on my handloads. But it does puzzle me how they can load for any gun, and (if we listen to all the loading instructions and manuals), we can't.

Vettepilot

 

[Vettepilot555]

If you haven't run into this problem yet I own a 30-06 that will blow primers at published starting loads using using IMR4350 and WC 846 . Had I just loaded to max and shot it what would hav happened?? The factory will make a round that will be safe to shoot in anything commercially made. That often will be a low velocity inaccurate round safe for the weakest actions. The reloading manuals offer a range of safe loads that worked in their test rigs with those particular componants that particular day. Different batches of ANY of those componants can/will produce different results so the need to work up. My reason to want to work up along with safety is to find max accuracy. Seldom is it at max load I find. YMMV

Wow. What do you figure is the reason for this with your 30.06? This seems to go beyond a snug chamber, on into an improper leade/throat maybe???

And AJC1: "....minimize risk in a sea of risk." I like that. Could be a zen philosophy for life!!

;~)

Thanks for the responses guys!
Vettepilot

 

[vongh]

To me it all depends on pressure. The factories can get powder that is very specific to what they want. I've seen loads at the top end in the manuals in velocity but when you look at the pressure specs it's middle to lower. I've also seen powders that will work lower on the list velocity is slower but pressure is high.

 

[mdi]

As I understand it, ammo manufacturers often blend powders to meet their specifications, and also get "propriety" powders from the manufacturer, most not available in canister grade. So, powder variations are easily overcome. I've read that powder manufacturers hold less than 4% variation in performance from lot to lot of their standard for a particular powder.

But bottom line, I do a load work up for each gun, for each combination of components. I like reloading so this is just part of the fun...

 

[FROGO207]

Not sure exactly the problem but the bolt needed to be opened with a mallet with Remington factory 180's. I'll be working on this one when I get time. It's a large ring Mauser with some unidentified barrel I bought used.

 

[higgite]

"They" say that you should work up a load in your own gun because you aren’t loading for every gun, as manufacturers are. If your gun happens to have a long leade and you work up a load that has .010” jump to the lands, it might not work in my gun that has .015” shorter leade than yours. Manufacturers build for the shortest leade their ammo is likely to run into. ymmv

 

[sparkyv]

This:

It's all about CYA!

 

[TEXASJD]

Not sure exactly the problem but the bolt needed to be opened with a mallet with Remington factory 180's. I'll be working on this one when I get time. It's a large ring Mauser with some unidentified barrel I bought used.

Sounds like a head space problem

 

[Bfh_auto]

So, I've never seen this addressed/discussed, though it most probably has been somewhere...

I have a question about load workup, that is particularly of interest now with the near impossibility of obtaining reloading components.

I am unclear on a point. I understand that powder manufacturers supply powders to the ammo companies that hits a somewhat broad spectrum of the burn rate, density, etc., of what the ammo company needs for a given load. The ammo company then tests that delivery, and works up a load using it, that should theoretically be safe in all applicable guns.

Then, there's us reloaders and handloaders. They supply powders to us that more stringently meet the burn rate, density, etc., of the particular name and type of powder. They of course realize we don't have the labratories and sophisticated test equipment that the ammo companies do, and need powders that are more tightly adherent to the desired specs.

HOWEVER....

There are still lot to lot variances in the powders, and we are vehemently and clearly warned to work up new loads in our guns for each new lot of powder we might happen to buy.

BUT, I frequently hear, and read, that this load, or that load is safe in MY gun; you must work up a load IN YOUR OWN GUN!

Well, a SAAMI chamber is a SAAMI chamber, is a SAAMI chamber no?? (Yes, I realize there are gun to gun differences for many reasons.)

But really, which is it we are working up loads for; lot to lot powder differences, or gun differences??

Now before you quickly say "Both!", consider that the ammo companies do loads with high performance, that work in all guns!

Just as an example, I recently did a load workup using a new bottle of Hodgdon 335 in my 223 Wylde rifle, and it turned out to be safe at the book max load. Wouldn't it be logical to think that load would also be safe in my daughter's 556 gun??

Don't worry, I will do a load workup in her gun as well, and already have loaded the rounds to do so, but I would nearly bet money the max load of this lot of powder will also be safe in her gun.

But what of my question?

In advance, thanks for any contributions to my in depth and ongoing handloading education!!

Vettepilot

It's too protect people from doing a load work up in a gun on the loose side of tolerances and sticking it in a gun that is on the tight side.
You will be beating the bolt open at a minimum.
I know from experience.
I usually don't worry about lot variation unless it's known to be erratic. I'm running at the top end of safety. Or my accuracy is off.

 

[P Flados]

In my opinion, the "load workup" process is mostly (say 90%) about the components you use (batch of powder, primer, cases, exact OAL, specific bullet) and 10% gun (loose / tight chamber and throat).

Once I have worked with a specific powder and primer combo in a couple of loads, I do not remember getting much of a surprise moving to another load. Changing batches for powder has given me results that I was not expecting. Changing brass has made a notable difference on occasion.

 

[bullseye308]

I always wondered that with Federal Gold Medal in my 308, and a few others 308’s. How could they get that kind of accuracy out of so many 308 rifles with so much possible variance in chambers and barrel lengths? I did meet and exceed it with a Varget load, but the data went with the rifle.

 

[AJC1]

I always wondered that with Federal Gold Medal in my 308, and a few others 308’s. How could they get that kind of accuracy out of so many 308 rifles with so much possible variance in chambers and barrel lengths? I did meet and exceed it with a Varget load, but the data went with the rifle.

A quality bullet is a huge part of the equation. That's a standard a lot of people experience and use as a guage. If an ar dosen't shoot a 69smk it doesn't shoot.

 

[JFrank]

Well, I certainly agree that one rarely sees the velocity shown on the ammo box. But then I have read numerous articles comparing factory loads to their handloads, whereby they struggled to match what the factory rounds actually shot, and were on the ragged edge of pressure if/when they got there.

I generally don't bother to chrono factory ammo, and rarely shoot it; instead relying on my handloads. But it does puzzle me how they can load for any gun, and (if we listen to all the loading instructions and manuals), we can't.

Vettepilot

If you take down a factory load I believe you would find them modest in charge weight.
My friend has been with a barrel manufacturing company for over 30 years. He supplies many many test barrels to ammunition companies for their testing.

 

[Thomasss]

I load for two Model 70 in .270 that don't like each other's ammo(chamber issues) and also load for 3, 30.06s that don't care what I put through them. But I can greatly improve accuracy of all the .06s if I tinker with with concentricity and runout. Now I have found sweet spots for all the gun's loads. I don't believe in shooting max loads for just deer hunting or target shooting. I use SAAMI as a starting point and review powders with every new container. I did have a container of 4895 that just didn't perform (old powder?) and some 4831 that generated orange fumes when opened(very old powder); both were used to fertilize my lawn.