Loaded ammo in Vibratory tumbler??
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jcwit
member
Actually I wonder about smokeless powder breaking down vastly changing its burn rate.
I know this is true in regards to black powder, 4 F being much faster than 1F.
But with that said do we know beyond a doubt that Unique in a finer state would be similar to bullseye?
I think there is much more to burn rates in regards to smokeless powder than how fine it is.
I know this is true in regards to black powder, 4 F being much faster than 1F.
But with that said do we know beyond a doubt that Unique in a finer state would be similar to bullseye?
I think there is much more to burn rates in regards to smokeless powder than how fine it is.
Chuck Warner
Member
Clarification
Without a doubt what I had was factory ammo. Tumbling is the number one suspect. That ammo is currently being evaluated by a lab here in ABQ to see if there is a definitive answer to the tumbled ammo question.
Every manufacturer of ammo and tumblers cautions against it. Just for the record, I have done it myself with no adverse affects. What may be the factor is type of ammo Ie powder, compaction etc. To those who say go ahead, no problem,...... you are foolhardy. Make your own choices, but be careful what you advise others to do.
To categorically state what happened with mine, without evidence, firsthand knowledge or facts.....Is pure arrogance.
I have had case failures as stated, and have tumbled ammo. I know what I bought, The vendor was forthright and never misrepresented anything.
I neither named the vendor or the ammo until data is available.
I will also continue to emphasize erring to the side of caution.
I have worked with quite a number of ballisticians and experienced cartridge developers, so there is a little experiance behind my cautions.
I will post data when it becomes available.
Chuck W
Without a doubt what I had was factory ammo. Tumbling is the number one suspect. That ammo is currently being evaluated by a lab here in ABQ to see if there is a definitive answer to the tumbled ammo question.
Every manufacturer of ammo and tumblers cautions against it. Just for the record, I have done it myself with no adverse affects. What may be the factor is type of ammo Ie powder, compaction etc. To those who say go ahead, no problem,...... you are foolhardy. Make your own choices, but be careful what you advise others to do.
To categorically state what happened with mine, without evidence, firsthand knowledge or facts.....Is pure arrogance.
I have had case failures as stated, and have tumbled ammo. I know what I bought, The vendor was forthright and never misrepresented anything.
I neither named the vendor or the ammo until data is available.
I will also continue to emphasize erring to the side of caution.
I have worked with quite a number of ballisticians and experienced cartridge developers, so there is a little experiance behind my cautions.
I will post data when it becomes available.
Chuck W
Chuck Warner
Member
The ammo was determined to be factory by an outside source
jcwit
member
Who was/is the source? Name and address and phone number.
RedAlert
Member
thanks folks. I intended only to "polish up a bit" some mil-surp ammo that was in good packaging but the rounds are showing their age. I figure, if they are nice and clean, it will be much easier to do a detailed visual inspection prior to firing.
Sport45
Member
I'd do the polishing after firing. What do you think polishing will reveal in a visual inspection that would keep you from shooting them? As I said earlier, if a cartridge has green corrosion toss it. Don't let the tumbler polish the green off and hide a weak area. Tarnish doesn't hurt anything.
I'm not against tumbling live ammo, I just think in your case it is a waste of time.
I'm not against tumbling live ammo, I just think in your case it is a waste of time.
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FROGO207
Member
If the brass is so corroded that it will not fit into the chamber then it has some issues with the integrity and will most likely have weak spots and IMO be unsafe to fire.
When I buy assorted reloads or suspected reloads at gun shows I consider them to be "components only" and take them apart ASAP so as not to mix them up with my reloads.
When I buy assorted reloads or suspected reloads at gun shows I consider them to be "components only" and take them apart ASAP so as not to mix them up with my reloads.
navyretired 1
Member
I said it before and I'll say it again unless you can get an ammo company to put it in writting, which they won't, everything else is just flapping our gums. I believe Chuck Warner. A little common sense thinking would seem to bare out that rubbing powder granules together could alter the the burn charactoristics of powder. The experiments conducted in the referances is compelling I've still not seen a powder company say it was not dangerous.
The cartridge manufacturer about a mile down the road say's they don't tumble loaded ammo. Name starts with an F and ends with an E but that rep insisted I not identify the company or him by name. He did say "We wash our cases after the drawing process and don't lube them for anything else so why in he_l would we tumble them".
The cartridge manufacturer about a mile down the road say's they don't tumble loaded ammo. Name starts with an F and ends with an E but that rep insisted I not identify the company or him by name. He did say "We wash our cases after the drawing process and don't lube them for anything else so why in he_l would we tumble them".
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The reps I spoke with also advised against it, but admitted they tumbled. The reason they cited was the possibility of touching off a round in the tumbler. One rep said he knew of one such incident. All stated tumbling would not break down powder composition.
Do you have that in writing?
navyretired 1
Member
Listen in this liability lawyer target rich environment you can't get anybody to put thier name or any test like this on paper.
No I have nothing in writting? The closest I've seen is the referenced link that Tumbled and test for dedicated pressure,accuracy and checking pulled powder for residue. I had a question about the apparent difference in color from one tumbled lot to another.
I'd like to see this test done formally with chemical and pressure info and then published with verifiable results and references. Figure the odds
No I have nothing in writting? The closest I've seen is the referenced link that Tumbled and test for dedicated pressure,accuracy and checking pulled powder for residue. I had a question about the apparent difference in color from one tumbled lot to another.
I'd like to see this test done formally with chemical and pressure info and then published with verifiable results and references. Figure the odds
You opened the door.
My question was rhetorical. I was simply making the point that your opinions/conversations with whomever are no more or less valid than any of the others posted here.
Guys have been tumbling loaded ammo for years. I expect the internet to be flooded with stories of horrific accidents any day now.
The Varmint Guy
Member
New to your forum, but count me in as a tumbler.
Every 200 45 ACPs get a final clean up.
A 60 min tumble gets the waxy reside on the top of the wad cutters cleaned up real nice.
Every 200 45 ACPs get a final clean up.
A 60 min tumble gets the waxy reside on the top of the wad cutters cleaned up real nice.
jcwit
member
No one has even made a comment to
Or does no one have any idea?
Of course I wonder just how the ordinary joe could measure a burn rate? Mayhaps we are discussing something none of us know anything about!
Or does no one have any idea?
Of course I wonder just how the ordinary joe could measure a burn rate? Mayhaps we are discussing something none of us know anything about!
Chuck Warner
Member
JCWIT......did you read my previous post? I will post all the data when available. No sooner.
Her in NM we are blessed with some very sophisticated Labs, due to the proximity of Los Alamos, etc., and one of the great things about what I do is having gotten the opportunity to befriend some really smart people.
One of those friends is an engineer at the biggest one and has agreed to look into this matter for me. As a friend. WHEN, AND IF, we can actually get some hard evidence, I will gladly post it.
In the meantime, I will still CAUTION against it.
It seems that not any of the links I posted were met with anyone saying its OK. I am trying to post facts not hearsay. The only link that seemed to have merit was the one from the University.
I also suspect the Low Frequency of shipping or transport is nothing compared to the HIGH frequency of a tumbler.
I have found that some of the factories do tumble their loaded ammo(described on the websites) for a couple of minutes at most. The tumblers that they use(that I could find, look like armor!
I know tumbling ammo has been done, as I have done it, as earlier stated.
I suspect that under certain circumstances, with certain cartridges and powder, It is a factor.
I have seen the effects of High frequency on steel, aluminum, Titanium etc.
food for thought.....
Chuck W
Her in NM we are blessed with some very sophisticated Labs, due to the proximity of Los Alamos, etc., and one of the great things about what I do is having gotten the opportunity to befriend some really smart people.
One of those friends is an engineer at the biggest one and has agreed to look into this matter for me. As a friend. WHEN, AND IF, we can actually get some hard evidence, I will gladly post it.
In the meantime, I will still CAUTION against it.
It seems that not any of the links I posted were met with anyone saying its OK. I am trying to post facts not hearsay. The only link that seemed to have merit was the one from the University.
I also suspect the Low Frequency of shipping or transport is nothing compared to the HIGH frequency of a tumbler.
I have found that some of the factories do tumble their loaded ammo(described on the websites) for a couple of minutes at most. The tumblers that they use(that I could find, look like armor!
I know tumbling ammo has been done, as I have done it, as earlier stated.
I suspect that under certain circumstances, with certain cartridges and powder, It is a factor.
I have seen the effects of High frequency on steel, aluminum, Titanium etc.
food for thought.....
Chuck W
Chuck Warner
Member
EDDIENFL.....read the post you referenced carefully. None say its ok and the references so far caution against it. I have, so far, tried to post what are facts, very vague at best.
Do YOU have anything in writing? I dont and never claimed to......yet.
Chuck W
Do YOU have anything in writing? I dont and never claimed to......yet.
Chuck W
So far, I've posted the facts as I know them. A careful read of my post will reveal the reps I spoke with (via email) advised against it, but not because of the possibility of affecting burn rate. One stated a hobbyist would probably never tumble to the degree they do.
I think we've determined no one has anything in writing.
I can recall load manuals 30 plus years ago containing a caution against tumbling loaded ammo. I can't find it in newer manuals (all that means is it isn't in newer manuals).
stephpd
Member
Of course all ammo and tumbler manufacturers say not to tumble live ammo. It's just from a liability standpoint.
All ammo and gun manufacturers say not to reload too. For much the same reason. Yet we do that all the time.
All ammo and gun manufacturers say not to reload too. For much the same reason. Yet we do that all the time.
jcwit
member
Yes I know just that N.M. has some of the best labs in the country. I was assigned to Hqtrs DASA [if you know just what that is] while in the military and dealt daily with folks at White Sands, Los Alamos, Sandia Base ect. Yup, I know whats available there.
Regarding the links, its my personal feeling and seems to be the general consensus that this is corporate lawyer's telling the general public not to do this to protect the mfg. Read the warnings on a mouse trap or a bag of peanuts for that matter. This is one of the reasons we're having such an ungodly scare regarding lead right now.
I still see no one with any proof even to the breakdown of smokeless powder changing the burn rates of a powder. I know it a factor with black powder but the black powder is a mechanical mixture of 3 chemicals, and the forulma being the same whether 1 F or 4
F. Smokeless powder is a much more complex chemical compound.
So till someone comes up with some substantial knowledge or proof we as I said are talking about something we know nothing about. Other than no one here has one go in a tumbler, nor have I either.
navyretired 1
Member
eddieNFL your point is valid and I also have tumbled loaded ammo and said so in my first post and I know if you look you can always find opposing views. I mean no offence I just posted info I was given by an ammo rep. long before this OP as I've often wondered about the subject, looks like I'm not the only one. Have a nice day.
Chuck Warner
Member
.....
I think we are all in agreance,that facts are few. I will endeavor to get as many as I can, if everyone else will. Maybe we can come up with an answer, in this day, and age, of information overload. It would be interesting to put to rest, one way or the other.
Chuck W.
I think we are all in agreance,that facts are few. I will endeavor to get as many as I can, if everyone else will. Maybe we can come up with an answer, in this day, and age, of information overload. It would be interesting to put to rest, one way or the other.
Chuck W.
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