Loading 9mm and .223 and breaking even on equipment cost

[jcwit]

Whats your time worth while watching some worthless show on TV, and don't tell us you don't unless you have no tv.

 

[TX expat]

Why its been a great dicussion which relates directly to the OP?

You are correct it has been; I was just prophesying.

 

[DANNY-L]

Theres time when it's down right boring when you have nothing left to reload for. Makes for a long winter.

 

[rellascout]

I hadn't really planned to read this whole thread, but I did (taking away valuable time from my work at the office I might add).

Then I got to thinking. When I go home in the evening, instead of reloading, what else might I be doing instead? TV is pretty bad these days, and there's no daylight or warm temps to do much outside. So, if I wasn't reloading, I'd probably drink beer. Now, beer ain't free ya know? If you were to sit at home and drink it, you might spend $1/can. It would be easy to go through 10 cans in an evening, so it would cost $10. But if you wanted to sit at a bar, this cost could easily triple. And of course, there's the possibility of getting a DUI in that scenario, which costs a whole lot. To say nothing of the possible health costs of consuming beer each night instead of reloading.

But even ignoring those types of possibilities, just focusing on the immediate cash outlay of buying beer, it's easy to calculate that by sitting at my reloading bench for 3 hours instead of consuming beer, it has indeed saved me a minimum of $10 in just one evening. Therefore when calculating the ROI of reloading, I need to deduct $10 from the costs for every evening that I spend reloading.

This is indeed a money making hobby!

I like your thinking on the subject... LOL

 

[Funshooter45]

LOL

Glad you saw the humor. I was just "killing time".

And yeah, it can be a bad thing when you find that in the winter, you've already loaded up all the brass you have on hand for your proven pistol loads, and you have 20 or so experimental "developmental" rifle loads on the shelf waiting to be shot and evaluated to know which direction to go, but the dang weather keeps you from going shooting. A bad thing indeed. The only solution is to go buy some more brass and bullets! And pray for spring!

 

[BullfrogKen]

I will still stand by my statement that the OP is skewing the numbers, his prices for loaded ammo are inflated, and he is not accounting or considering the true costs of associated with reloading.

OK, if you think his numbers are off then we'll use my calcs. I stopped going through this mental exercise almost 20 twenty years ago when I started reloading. But we'll go through it again for instructional purposes. Nearly every time I tried to compare factory ammo of similar quality to what I can handload, I find I'd have to pay roughly double buying factory. As you will see, we'll arrive at roughly the same figure.


I like to shoot 175gr Sierra MatchKings through my .308 for my long-range practice at the 1,000 yard range. I go through roughly 1,000 a year, so we'll figure out how much that costs both factory and handloaded.

You're in luck! I just got my MidwayUSA sale flyer for February. MidwayUSA has them on sale this month. Federal 308 Win Premium Gold Medal Rifle Ammunition
$220.99 per 200. That's $130.00 off the regular price. Now that's a deal! Or is it? We shall see . . .


We'll start with the bullet components. They're on sale too! $134.99 per 500.
Sierra 175gr Sierra MatchKing We'll need two boxes. And just to be nice, I'll even pretend we missed the sale and use the regular price of $144.99 = call it $300 for bullet components (round up for shipping).


I can get my primers and powder at my local gunshop, so I do . . . 1,000 primers cost me roughly $30.00 per thousand. I can get 8lbs of IMR4895 at my local retailer for $140.00, but I don't need 8 lbs. We only need 6 to load up 1k .308s, so that's $100.00 even.

I still have about 2k in .308 brass here, and haven't needed to buy any in many years. But let's say I did need to buy it. Let's go get 200 pieces of brass, they'll last at least 8 reloads so 200 is plenty to go have 5 afternoons of fun. Whoa . . . Federal is selling brass again. Cool. They ceased offering it for years once CCI/Blount bought the company - I just learned something. $23.99 per 50, so we'll need 4 boxes = call it an even $100.00.
Federal .308 brass

So, the components cost us $530.00.

That great sale on the exact same Federal factory round with those Sierra bullets is $1,104.95, before shipping. See, roughly half.


But what about my press and equipment you ask? I do own a LOT of reloading equipment and tools. But I've been using the same Lee press for over 15 years. My scale, powder measure, and dies about the same time frame. That's what we accountants call capital assets, like your car. In fact, I've gone through several cars since I began reloading. My tools are still here.

The equipment it takes to load should be spread out over time, a long period of time, and not justified in a "break-even" analysis. I know guys who are still using their same equipment from 40 years ago. The problem with trying to figure out how many units it takes to pay back capital is tough when you don't know how many units you'll produce on it over it's whole life. And you will see that the components will eventually cost more then the equipment over time.

We'll capitalize the costs and amortize them out over 20 years.


Lee Classic Cast press $99.99, great press. I use it all the time, just last night even.
RCBS's premium scale $151.99
RCBS powder measure $86.99
Lee dies $30.99. Awesome dies, but barely even worth capitalizing.

If I were doing this "for real", none of this stuff would be worth enough for an accountant to bother capitalizing anyway. It's just not material enough. Let's throw in another $200.00 for calipers and other assorted small case prep tools. We're up to $569.96 in equipment, just barely over the cost of the components. And if you are curious, by happenstance we also just broke even, almost to the penny.

Amortized that equipment's going to cost me just under $30/year over 20 years. Merely shooting nothing but 1,000 rounds of .308 every year costs me $530.00 per year in components (at todays' prices by the way). You can see why over a lifetime of shooting why we say the equipment is such a small cost over the cost of the actual components that it can practically be ignored. That same factory ammo on sale was $1,104.95.


Half. It's always half the price to load the same quality yourself. Check my numbers and sources. They're all real-world and documented.


The only question you have to ask yourself is this. Why pay someone else to do work you can do yourself for half the price?

There are no other "true costs". The opportunity cost is "what else were you going to do tonight?" I reload while listening to the nightly news.

 

[dzelenka]

I have run these numbers myself in the past. Just about every 6 months I consider getting into reloading. At first glance it seems like you are going to be way ahead but...

I think the part that is missing from the calculation is your time. Lets put a modest number on that. Say $15 an hour. How many hours does it take you to load that ammo? Time is not free. To do a "real" cost anylsis you have to factor that in.

Also I think that your numbers are high. I can get 9mm most of the time under $.18 a round delivered. So you are saving yourself $.07 x 200 = $14.00each time you head out to the range. 223 costs me about $300 for 1000 rounds of brass cased Federal so your savings on .223/556 is higher.

I know most people will say that reloading is a labor of love but for a real cost savings calcualtion you have to account for time. I won't even bring up space. LOL

One thing that most people miss when doing these calculations is that the purchase of reloading equipment is not a cost, it is a capital investment. You really start saving from the first round. Also, quality reloading equipment has a good resale value. Your true cost of the equipment is what it costs you to park the money in the asset plus any "loss" you will recognize on sale. If I amortized my equipment over the 32 years I have been reloading or the 10s of thousands of rounds it has loaded (I am a competitive highpower shooter), the amount per round is infinitesimal. If I had to buy Gold Medal Match, even at wholesale rather than reload, I would have paid many, many times what my equipment cost. .223 match ammo with 77gr Sierras is less that $0.35 per round to reload. So are Bergers. .308 Palma ammo using 155 Sierras is $0.38 plus the cost of brass. Even if you buy Lapua for $0.60 per, you can load it a number of times. I would not use more than a $0.10 per load cost for Lapua brass. That is less than $0.50 per round for top of the line match ammo. Compare it to commercially available match ammo and you are saving at least $1 per round. Hunting ammo with premium bullets is the same. You really would have to shoot very little to justify not reloading.

 

[dzelenka]

Bullfrog,

You went the same place that I did, but you pay way too much for components. 1000 175 SMKs is only $240.50 delivered if you use the Sierra Drop Ship program. You only need a $1000 order which is very easy to put together if you have a couple of friends who shoot.

 

[BullfrogKen]

dzelenka,

I'm being generous with my figures. If I'd have mentioned drop ship from a manufacturer, rellascout would have thrown doubt on my figures. I used prices I could document from the same source, as someone buying as an individual.

Take the example someone gave of changing your own oil. It might take you a hour of free time to complete this task. You can have it done for $50 - $20 of which is labor the rest is parts which you would have had to pay for anyway. When I choose to pay to have my oil changed instead of spending the hour to do it myself I have assigned a $$ value to my hour of free time. That hour is worth $20 to me. It might not be worth $20 to you but it still has a value which I can justify and I have produced nothing that someone wants to buy and I have not agreed to work for anyone. This does not mean I have no free time to spend on things I want to do like shooting or typing here.

If you would like to challenge that assertion I am all ears.

I would.

You're paying the marginal cost of $20 to have someone do that task for you, roughly $20 an hour, right? That's what you feel it's worth to you to have your time unencumbered by changing your own oil.


Ok. It takes me about 6 hours to load up those 1,000 .308 rounds. The marginal cost between loading them myself and buying factory is about $550.00
($530 for components, $30 for equipment = $560.00 . . . . buying them on sale = $1,104.95 . . . . a difference of $544.95).


So you're paying someone roughly $92.00 per hour to load it for you. Is your labor worth $92.00 per hour to you?

 

[medalguy]

Who do I bill for reading this looooong thread at $50 an hour when I could have been reloading all that time for the same money???

 

[rellascout]

So you're paying someone roughly $92.00 per hour to load it for you. Is your labor worth $92.00 per hour to you?

Thank you for finally validating my entire argument. You have decided that $92 an hour is more than you could make doing something else and that it is too much to pay to have someone else load the ammo for you.

For me the answer is yes. My labor rate is worth more than $92 an hour to not have to sit like a monkey and hand press out ammo.

PS the arguments that you and dzelenka are light years ahead of the OPs .

 

[BullfrogKen]

Thank you for finally validating my entire argument. You have decided that $92 an hour is more than you could make doing something else

You can conclude whatever you want. I never said that was my logic. I'm using yours to illustrate your point.


We never concluded what your time was worth. We only concluded that $20 an hour is a price you're willing to pay someone else to change your oil. And that you're willing to pay someone else $92.00 to assemble ammunition for you so that you don't have to "sit like a monkey and hand press out ammo." We've concluded someone else's price for those services, not yours.

Such things were never the crux of my argument. You are willing to pay someone else to do some work that you don't want to do. That's fine. Leave it at that. But you're going through a lot of mental work trying to find ways to justify why you think there is an actual cost involved in activity that never incurred that must somehow be calculated and accounted for.

If I didn't go to work but rather spent the day acting like a monkey on my press, I'd agree there'd be some actual cost involved - my lost wages. Or if I paid someone else to do my housework while I "stroked the handle", again I'd agree.

That's not the case here. Or maybe it is. Maybe your day is so full of productive, billable activity that you have no time for distractions. But since you're here . . . . you get my point.



You know, this debate reminds me of a movement for economic redefinition that the Clinton Administration seriously considered for a short while. Back in the late 80's and early 90's a feminist and self-proclaimed "female human rights" activist Marilyn Waring published If Women Counted; What Men Value and What Women are Worth . She posited that the way countries measure GDP (Gross Domestic Product) is unfair to women. She argued that "household production" had a value, but it since it was not acquired through the marketplace it was not accounted for. All that labor, "the women's work" in the home, taking care of the household and children had value. But since no money changed hands it was never accounted for.


She argued that uncompensated work, even uncompensated work of a woman in the home taking care of her family, ought to be assigned some monetary value and accounted for in GDP.


You may not be aware of it, but you're using some of her exact arguments while making your own.


If you don't want to reload rellascout, that's cool. We don't need these silly cost/benefit nebulous cost valuations for your time to support or oppose your reasons. Reloading costs less. Period. So does cooking at home vs. going out to eat. Only a fool would argue otherwise.

I do it for reasons besides pure cost. But cost is a factor, but not because I spend less. I just spend better. My gun and shooting budget goes a lot farther because I reload.

 

[mcdonl]

Rella, you never answered my question. If someone would pay you, your "going rate" to reload your own ammo, would you?

It is ok to just not want to reload, or to not reload because you do not have enough time. Nothing wrong with that at all.

 

[GaryL]

Even with the cost of the equipment I saved $166 in the first year alone for my weekly practice ammo. This gets even better when factoring in any tactical classes and matches.

I'm glad I started to reload!!!

-Dave

See, now you need to add in some calibers to really start enjoying the savings. Might I recommend picking up guns in 44mag, 45 Colt, 357mag to really see the $ start flowing in.

 

[jcwit]

For me the answer is yes. My labor rate is worth more than $92 an hour to not have to sit like a monkey and hand press out ammo.

How much do you figure your time is worth while eating, driving to work, or any of hundreds of things you do with no actual pay? We won't get into some of them here.

 

[rellascout]

Rella, you never answered my question. If someone would pay you, your "going rate" to reload your own ammo, would you?

It is ok to just not want to reload, or to not reload because you do not have enough time. Nothing wrong with that at all.

No there are other things which I prefer to do to pay my way in life. I liken it to painting a home or remodeling my kitchen. I am capable of both but choose to pay others to do it.

 

[rellascout]

If you don't want to reload rellascout, that's cool. We don't need these silly cost/benefit nebulous cost valuations for your time to support or oppose your reasons. Reloading costs less. Period. So does cooking at home vs. going out to eat. Only a fool would argue otherwise.

Reloading only costs less if your time is = to $0. Which you have clearly stated again and again is the case for you. I'm cool with that. You do not place a $$$ value on your "free time" but that does not mean others do not or that the concept is invalid. You have yet to prove in any concrete way that your valuation is more accurate than mine.

IMHO the original cost benefit analysis is what is silly. Its so simplistic and inaccurate but because you agree with its conclusion you seem to be willing to ignore its faults. Maybe you prefer circular reasoning to real analysis. You have failed to present a counter argument that does not constitute fallacy. Its been fun. Thanks as I said in my PM I enjoyed it.

 

[mcdonl]

I guess in the end you prefer circular reasoning to real analysis.

No, in the end all of this is just a hobby that costs me money. I do not need to tie my own flys, or make my own atlas stones either, but for me it is all about the journey.

Peace Rella, your a good one.

 

[wow6599]

I enjoy reloading, but I don't reload for 9mm.......even though I am set-up to. I don't think it's worth my time to load range stuff in 9mm.......PITA and doesn't really save me all that much $, but that's me. On the other hand, I can't remember the last time I bought commercially loaded .357, .45, 10mm, .380, - or 9 in JHP. I guess I just don't see the advantage of loading 9mm range stuff when I can still buy 100 rds for around $16 and avoid the aggravation.

BTW, am I the only one who finds the 9mm to be a pain to reload?

 

[rellascout]

No, in the end all of this is just a hobby that costs me money. I do not need to tie my own flys, or make my own atlas stones either, but for me it is all about the journey.

Peace Rella, your a good one.

+1000000

That is the best argument for reloading, making flys and atlas stones I have ever heard. I could not agree with you more.

 

[rellascout]

Ken you do realize that this is a red herring which is also a fallacy....

You know, this debate reminds me of a movement for economic redefinition that the Clinton Administration seriously considered for a short while. Back in the late 80's and early 90's a feminist and self-proclaimed "female human rights" activist Marilyn Waring published If Women Counted; What Men Value and What Women are Worth . She posited that the way countries measure GDP (Gross Domestic Product) is unfair to women. She argued that "household production" had a value, but it since it was not acquired through the marketplace it was not accounted for. All that labor, "the women's work" in the home, taking care of the household and children had value. But since no money changed hands it was never accounted for.


She argued that uncompensated work, even uncompensated work of a woman in the home taking care of her family, ought to be assigned some monetary value and accounted for in GDP.


You may not be aware of it, but you're using some of her exact arguments while making your own.

 

[BullfrogKen]

IMHO the original cost benefit analysis is what is silly. Its so simplistic and inaccurate but because you agree with its conclusion you ignore its faults.

The original example included capital equipment in with the variable costs (cost of the components), so for that reason it was inaccurate.

Reloading only costs less if your time is = to $0

My friend, there are many things the human race does that doesn't get compensated for, the most expensive one is raising children. Much of that has an actual cost. But when a parent cooks dinner for his/her children, he/she doesn't figure that the spaghetti cooked at home cost more than what it would have cost if they went out to eat because their time was more valuable doing something else. It simply cost less. End of story.


This is starting to really get silly here, my friend.

I guess in the end you prefer circular reasoning to real analysis.

Yeah, well Marilyn Waring's book didn't appeal to me much, either.

 

[rellascout]

Yeah, well Marilyn Waring's book didn't appeal to me much, either.

Continuation of the red herring because you have not proven that she is wrong. Honestly if you are going to have a logically debate about a topic it is best to avoid fallacies which weaken your position.

Its been fun I am out....

 

[RustyFN]

My point is and still stands that too many of the standard reloading saves me money are examples of poor accounting.

Let me try an example and you can tell me if I'm saving money. I cast my own bullets. I get all of my lead for free. To cast/lube 1,000 bullets and load 1,000 rounds I am looking at 7 hours. I buy primers and powder in bulk and can load that 1,000 rounds for $23. Add $2 for electric to cast and that brings me up to $25. Forget WWB or PMC ammo because it doesn't compare. So to buy decent 45 auto you are looking at around $550 per 1,000 rounds. That's $525 less to reload. Taking 7 hours to save $525 I am saving $75 per hour. At least I feel I'm saving $75 per hour.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Continuation of the red herring because you have not proven that she is wrong.

She's an activist who attempted to use economics to advance a political agenda. Her ideas have no respect within the field. Not even the Keynesians bought into it. I didn't have to prove it wrong; the entire field rejected her notions.



Look, I like Ayn Rand and appreciate her contributions to the world as much as the next guy. But this isn't a college philosophy debate class where we get points for the form and structure of our argument, regardless of the substance within it. Waring advanced those exact same theories and arguments to the field of economics. They got rejected there, too.



edit - Why is it that Rand-heads like to argue so much? What on earth is an avowed non-reloader doing in a forum set up to help reloaders learn the reloading hobby, anyway?