Loading Civilian Vs Military 223 brass

[SC_Dave]

Load data:
55gr FMJ Boatail
25.0 Varget
Civ brass

This load is just for plinking and self defense practice.

I have a friend (reloader) who told me when I load Mil brass to dial down to about 24.5 Varget because the Mil brass wall is thicker thus less case volume/more pressure. He keeps his Mil and Civ brass seperated and loads them differently. Is this necessary?

Since 25.0 of Varget is the suggested starting load per Lyman 49th, don't I have enough of a buffer to not have to worry about pressure problems with the Mil brass?

Your thoughts?
David

 

[rcmodel]

My experience has long been that GI 30-06 & 7.62 NATO brass is much thicker then commercial 30-06 & .308 Win brass, and a load reduction is necessary.

All my old LC 5.56 NATO brass is lighter then new commercial Remington .223 brass I bought new just a few years ago.

I don't load bleeding foreskin hot loads, and treat it all the same.

CIV brass?
You are on your own.
I never heard of it.


What you need to do is size & trim your CIV 5.56 and commercial .223 brass then weigh it.

Whichever is lighter has more capacity.

Here's another look at it about 1/5 way down this page:

http://www.6mmbr.com/223rem.html

rc

 

[KansasSasquatch]

For me, 25.0gr of Varget under a 55gr FMJ is LIGHT for any .223 or 5.56 brass I've used. My normal load for 55gr. FMJs, SPs, V-Max, and Blitz is between 26.2 and 26.5gr of Varget, and I don't get any signs of pressure. With a 55gr FMJ seated to just fit in the magazine, it's almost impossible to get too much Varget in a .223 casing. You'll be fine with 25.0gr in .223 or 5.56 brass.

 

[Bruno2]

The rule of thumb is to reduce the powder charge 10% for military brass.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

The rule of thumb is to reduce the powder charge 10% for military brass.

That's not the rule for all military brass. Please don't give out bad information without checking. Most, if not all .223/5.56 brass has the same exact powder capacity. I did find some very old PMC brass once that had slightly less case space but that was only once. The PMC letters were very small compared to the current PMC brass too.

 

[ultratec1]

What I found out that works best for me is 24 gr of varget with a 55gr v-max out of my 16" and 24.5 out of my 18" again that is just me.

 

[steve4102]

The rule of thumb is to reduce the powder charge 10% for military brass.

As AACD and RC have pointed out this is bad information.

It is a Myth that 5.56 Military brass has less case capacity then it's civilian brother the 223 Rem. Read RC's link and see for yourself.

Here is Sierra has to say about it.


The conventional wisdom to reduce loads with military brass is familiar to most reloaders and is generally good advice. The rationale here is that the military cases tend to be somewhat thicker and heavier than their civilian counterparts, which in turn reduces capacity and raises pressures. This additional pressure normally requires a one or two grain reduction from the loads shown in most manuals or other data developed with commercial cases. While this is most often the situation with both 308 Winchester and 30-06 cases, it is less true with the 223 brass. We have found that military cases often have significantly more capacity than several brands of commercial brass. Again, take the time to do a side-by-side comparison of the cases you are working with and adjust your load as needed. There may be no need for such a reduction with the 223.

Link

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/gasgunreload.cfm

 

[hentown]

The rule of thumb is to reduce the powder charge 10% for military brass.

I'd suggest that you consult with a more knowledgeable thumb. That "rule" doesn't apply to 5.56/.223 brass.

 

[Bruno2]

That's not the rule for all military brass. Please don't give out bad information without checking. Most, if not all .223/5.56 brass has the same exact powder capacity. I did find some very old PMC brass once that had slightly less case space but that was only once. The PMC letters were very small compared to the current PMC brass too.

Just let me know how its bad advice?

 

[balderclev]

Who cares? Just work up your loads as you normally do and you will be fine.

 

[steve4102]

Just let me know how its bad advice?

That particular Rule-of-Thumb is incorrect as far as the 223/5.56 is concerned. Any incorrect information in the Reloading World could be considered "bad advice".

Lets look at it this way. With your "Rule-of-Thumb" it could be interpreted as Safe to load 223 brass with 10% more powder than 5.56 brass, when in fact just the opposite is true.

 

[Bruno2]

That's not at all what was said, but thank you for recognizing the reduced load as safe advice in your own little way of not admitting that you are wrong about it being "bad" advice. "Bad" advice in the reloading world will blow your gun up or hurt a shooter. If I was suggesting to reduce a charge by 10% then that would mean reducing a charge from a credible load source.

Thanks for yourself and Archangel for trying to be reload snobs, but we had a very in depth discussion a few yrs ago about he very subject. Some military cases do indeed have a smaller capacity than others and can result in a compressed load. However, some don't, but unless you are going to take the time to measure the volume of every case to see if it fits in the category or not then just simply reduce the load by 10%.

Reducing a load is never bad advice. However, increasing one beyond max recommended charge from a credible loading source could very well be.

 

[SC_Dave]

CIV brass?
You are on your own.
I never heard of it.

RC, I guess by civilian brass I meant commercial brass. Just a way of seperating the two.
David

 

[steve4102]

If I was suggesting to reduce a charge by 10% then that would mean reducing a charge from a credible load source.

It is also "bad Advice" to recommend reducing a charge from a credible load source by 10% when referring to Minimum charge. In your previous post you did exactly that, which is of course "bad advice".

Reducing a load is never bad advice.

It can be "bad advice when referring to a published Min charge. Some powders do not play nice when loading below Min.

 

[cfullgraf]

Reducing a load is never bad advice.

Correct, when changing components from an established recipe, one should reduce the powder charge and work back up. That is sound advice whether going from commercial to military. military to commercial, Winchester to R-P, Lapua to IMI, etc. etc. etc.

But, I have to agree with steve4102 in that many folks will take a set of circumstances and interpolate a solution to make their life easier. My example would be someone taking a load that is safe in a 5.56 NATO case and moving it to smaller capacity commercial 223 Remington case without working up the load again and checking for pressure signs.

 

[steve4102]

many folks will take a set of circumstances and interpolate a solution to make their life easier. My example would be someone taking a load that is safe in a 5.56 NATO case and moving it to smaller capacity commercial 223 Remington case without working up the load again and checking for pressure signs.

Thanks, you said it much better than I did.

 

[SC_Dave]

Thanks for the information guys. I read it all including most of the links.

Here are my plans, vet them for me.

As I mentioned my my current load for .223 commercial brass, 55gr FMJBT is 25.0gr Varget. Since the is the suggested starting load from Lyman I plan to load the Military brass with the same 25grs of Varget and check for pressure signs.
David

 

[Bruno2]

Make sure the powder level isn't way up the neck of the brass to where it looks as though the bullet will compress the powder when seated. If it is then start at a lower recommended gr weight and work up looking for the pressure signs.

 

[rcmodel]

There is nothing wrong with compressed loads if that's what your reloading manual calls for.

Hodgdon shows 5 different powders with 55 grain bullets and 6 with 53 grain bullets that will be compressed loads by the time you reach Max.

rc

 

[steve4102]

Don't worry about "compression" when working up you will eventually begin to compress Varget, perfectly normal and perfectly safe.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

That's not at all what was said, but thank you for recognizing the reduced load as safe advice in your own little way of not admitting that you are wrong about it being "bad" advice. "Bad" advice in the reloading world will blow your gun up or hurt a shooter. If I was suggesting to reduce a charge by 10% then that would mean reducing a charge from a credible load source.

Thanks for yourself and Archangel for trying to be reload snobs, but we had a very in depth discussion a few yrs ago about he very subject. Some military cases do indeed have a smaller capacity than others and can result in a compressed load. However, some don't, but unless you are going to take the time to measure the volume of every case to see if it fits in the category or not then just simply reduce the load by 10%.

Reducing a load is never bad advice. However, increasing one beyond max recommended charge from a credible loading source could very well be.

You said "that's not all what was said" but it was because I quoted you're entire post.

Then you decided to call me names! You can disagree with me all you want but do not call me names! That is not The High Road way, is it?

Bad advice is bad advice. There is no need to blow up a gun to qualify the advice as bad...

 

[SC_Dave]

Thanks for the information guys. I read it all including most of the links.

Here are my plans, vet them for me.

As I mentioned my my current load for .223 commercial brass, 55gr FMJBT is 25.0gr Varget. Since the is the suggested starting load from Lyman I plan to load the Military brass with the same 25grs of Varget and check for pressure signs. David

 

[Bruno2]

You said "that's not all what was said" but it was because I quoted you're entire post.

Then you decided to call me names! You can disagree with me all you want but do not call me names!

How is it any different than coming out and labeling perfectly safe advice as "bad advice"? Don't call my safe advice "bad advice" that isn't high road either.

 

[Maj Dad]

I think you'll do just fine, Dave - that is a very mild load. One thing I would restate is that the "rule" about reducing charges in mil cases by 10% always referred to maximum charges and never minimums. As was noted by several posters, going below the recommended starting load can cause problems with certain powders, H110 and Win 296 for example, and is unnecessary at best. And as rcmodel, steve4102 & others commented, compressed loads are very common so long as they are recommended by the load manual/manufacturer.
Have fun!
Cheers,
George J.

 

[SC_Dave]

Thanks Dad!