^ 4064 kernels are pretty big and don't meter very well. 4895 (at least IMR) are smaller and meter a little better.
Slamfire, can you explain why 4895 works in a Dillon and 4064 doesn't? Is it charge volume or consistency or both?
One pre WW2 powder that I used in the 308 Win was IMR 3031. It is faster than IMR 4895. It was as long grained as IMR 4064. This powder shot very well and functioned the M1a rifle fine, in fact, I think it could be a better powder for the 7.62 Nato and it could be better for the Garand, as the powder is faster burning.
Can you source that chart?
My advice for reloading for Garands/M1a's is to
1.Full length resize in a small base die
2.Trim cases
3.Clean primer pockets, ream to depth
4.Prime all cases by hand, verify that all primers are below the case head, and use the least sensitive primers you can find.
5. Use IMR4895/AA2495/H4895 powders.
6. Seat the bullets to magazine depth, no longer than 3.3” inches for the 30-06, no longer than 2.8 for the 308, shorter is fine.
I didn't feel the need to quote/repost your entire thread, but I did want to thank you for sharing all of that knowledge. It must have taken up quite a bit of your time to type it all out.
Agnotology is an interesting topic in its own right. Why don't you know, what you don't know?
Download Master Po's - I did some years back, and printed a couple of copies to litter the reloading area with...As to load data for the M1 Garand here is a page you may find useful. My best results have come from AA 2495 and like most I also like H 4895 and IMR 4895. When shooting 150 grain I like the Sierra 150 grain FMJ stuff and for serious ammunition I like the Sierra 150 and 168 grain HPBT bullets but also the Speer Gold Medal 168 grain HPBT stuff. I also noticed what shoots great in one rifle may be not so great in another. So really it comes down to working up a load for a specific rifle.
I saw mention of Master Po well MASTER PO'S M1 loads (Courtesy of the NRA) is alive and well and every time I visit that website it takes forever and then some for the page to load. I have no idea why but it is apparently running on a slower than slow server. Eventually it does load.
The oldest powder IMR 4895 and some IMR 4064 I have used recently was about 25 years old and with proper storage it has worked just fine along with old CCI primers.
Ron
In 50 years of reloading I have never used the (in my light-hearted opinion) johnny-come-lately Mil Spec primers simply because they weren't available anywhere at any price (and I never knew they were available, anyway). I have shot thousands of Garand & M14 loads with never a problem but I always used Win or CCI, and definitely avoided Federals in autoloaders only because they had a reputation of being soft - I have no personal experience with that. I didn't know I had a problem for not using GI primers until a few years ago - thank goodness me & a few thousand other guys didn't blow ourselves up back in the '60's and '70's!LOL. So the I.B. program at the school where I teach teaches a course called Theory of Knowledge, which explores, essentially, the opposite question: "how do we know what we know?"
By the way. Looks like I'll be using CCI 300 standard Large Rifle primers. The Mil-spec No. 34 is unobtainium up here, and there is no possible way to ship them here. So, I'm hoping the 300s are the next best thing and good enough.
Just a note, the CCI-300 primers are LPP which I'm sure you knew but posted it incorrectly.By the way. Looks like I'll be using CCI 300 standard Large Rifle primers. The Mil-spec No. 34 is unobtainium up here, and there is no possible way to ship them here. So, I'm hoping the 300s are the next best thing and good enough.
In 50 years of reloading I have never used the (in my light-hearted opinion) johnny-come-lately Mil Spec primers simply because they weren't available anywhere at any price (and I never knew they were available, anyway). I have shot thousands of Garand & M14 loads with never a problem but I always used Win or CCI, and definitely avoided Federals in autoloaders only because they had a reputation of being soft - I have no personal experience with that. I didn't know I had a problem for not using GI primers until a few years ago - thank goodness me & a few thousand other guys didn't blow ourselves up back in the '60's and '70's!
Yeah. I just got my numbers mixed up. I use a LOT of Large Pistol Primers, so that number was stuck in my head.Just a note, the CCI-300 primers are LPP which I'm sure you knew but posted it incorrectly.
I have used the CCI-200 LRP in my M1 ammo but would rather the CCI-250 LPMP instead. The #34 primers are magnum class so the CCI-250s are a better substitute. If you can get the 250s I would use them over the 200s.
Ok, I give up. I can't find a .pdf, or mention of a printed copy, anywhere. The closest is a reference in Random Shots by Rayle.Appendix G
Report Number: SA-TR11-2610
Gas Systems Caliber .30 T44 Rifle
Springfield Armory 2 Aug 1954
A gun club bud of mine, "Major King", we were discussing slamfires at a club dinner one time. Major King joined the Army sometime in the late 1950's, went to Vietnam, actually carried a Garand for a time in Vietnam. He could have seen millions of rounds go downrange in Garands, and said he had never seen or heard of a slamfire in service. But, he was not looking for slamfires. He had accidental shooting stories, it is amazing how many ways service men could shot themselves, or their buddies.
He did had one story, from a Vietnam patrol. He was the Officer leading the patrol and they were in an ambush on a trail. A VC or NVA comes down the trail and Private "Gungho" jumps out and shoots at the VC/NVA with his 30 cal Carbine. Major King had actively tried to discourage Private Gungho from carrying the carbine, but someone, maybe a Dad, an Uncle had carried one in a previous war, and Private Gungho was emotionally invested in the thing. According to Major King, the carbine "blew up" in Private Gungho's hands. The shot also missed the VC/NVA and so startled the guy, he was frozen in place. Private Gungho then drew his Gerber knife, charged the VC/NVA, knocked him down, and stabbed him to death. The event was so gruesome that Major King winced when telling the story. There was probably a lot of screaming and blood. To me, I think the the carbine had an out of battery event, I don't know what happened to the weapon, it was probably discarded, when they cleared out from the area. No forensic examination of the weapon was performed, at least not to the satisfaction of a slamfire denier or a slamfire advocate. You can imagine, a LURP patrol, behind enemy lines, and they wanted to get out of there because all the noise probably alerted the enemy. Major King did not think it was an out of battery event. To him, carbines were junk and blow ups were something you would expect from a 30 caliber carbine. Because they were junk.
Anyway, decades after the Vietnam War, Major King is at the range with a club match M1. These have been sold now, but the club purchased these in the 1970's, from the DCM. These were very rare Lackland AF built 308 NM Garands, all "GI". Major King loaded a reload in the chamber, dropped the bolt, and the rifle slamfired in battery. He was surprised. Never say never.
The Army knew the characteristics of its weapons and issued ammunition that had rather insensitive primers. Slamfires with ball ammunition are rare, and out of battery slamfire incidents with ball ammunition are even rarer, but they are out there. I used to post pages of slamfire stories I found on the web. Not that it makes any difference to slamfire deniers. People only see what they want to see. For example, in this thread, I referenced an Army test report where the Army documented an out of battery slamfire event in a production M14. Deniers discount that report. They don't see it, it does not fit into their cosmology. It can't happen to them because they don't believe it can happen. I used to debate some very persistent slamfire deniers, two of them, HughUno and John Kepler. They were positively insistent that I was a fool, a liar, that the Garand mechanism was perfect, could not, would not slamfire due to sensitive primers. They were adamant that primer sensitivity had nothing to do with anything, mil spec primers were a fraud, CCI primers were crap, etc, etc. Later I found postings that both of them had experienced in battery slamfires with US ball ammunition in their CMP Garands. That had not changed their opinions: Kepler claimed his slamfire was due to "old ammunition", and HughUno claimed that since nothing bad happened it was a non event, and the Garand mechanism could not slamfire out of battery. Both are the types of deniers who who move the goal posts to avoid admitting that sensitive primers could ignite without the trigger being pulled.
So, if you don't believe in slamfires, there are lots of people in that club. I don't want to be around any of them when they have weapons in their hands. The most important element to firearm safety is attitude.
How did Private Gungho get said Carbine and use it. Was he in a unit that was using sterile weapons?
I'm a fervent believer in the laws of statistics, especially Murphy's. I've been lucky with rifles, but I blew the left grip off a Jimmy Clark 38 spl 1911 with a friend's double charged reload. Still have that case with the blown out rear segment on my reloading bench since my chariot lacks a rider reminding me of my mortality. I have taken to uniforming the primer pockets of rifle cases to make sure they aren't shallow - that's a direct result of the slam fire issues and an easy way to minimize one variable. I have several thousand rounds of GI and other factory ammo for the Garand and M14, so reloading isn't a pressing need. At my age, I need to start shooting it up since it ain't gonna fit in the coffin...So, if you don't believe in slamfires, there are lots of people in that club. I don't want to be around any of them when they have weapons in their hands. The most important element to firearm safety is attitude.
I have taken to uniforming the primer pockets of rifle cases to make sure they aren't shallow - that's a direct result of the slam fire issues and an easy way to minimize one variable. I
A Pennsylvania woman was shot in the leg while shopping at a local department store on Tuesday. But in a nearly unbelievable twist, no gun was involved. Apparently, the woman was carrying the bullet in her purse, when it mysteriously exploded.
"She did not have a gun in her purse or on her," Montoursville Deputy Police Chief Jason Bentley told the Williamsport Sun-Gazette. Bentley said the woman, whose name has not been released to the public, "was not aware" she was carrying two or three bullets inside her purse at the time of the accident.
The 56-year-old woman was taken to a local hospital and was eventually discharged. In fact, the woman initially declined medical treatment, only heading to the Williamsport Regional Medical Center after her son reportedly encouraged her to do so.
"Something must of hit the primer of one of the bullets," Bentley said. "The bullet stayed in the purse, but its casing put a hole in the purse and caused a minor leg wound."
Bullets exploding outside of a gun are a rare occurrence but are not entirely unprecedented. In March, a bullet being used as evidence in a court case exploded in a bag and shot 20 feet across a courtroom. No one was hurt in the incident. It was surmised that the bullet exploded after its tip bounced against another bullet tip in the same evidence bag, according to the Telegram & Gazette.
Ron, here are the differences in the 2 primers. So the anvil angle change is the difference, this keeps the free floating firing pins from causing slam-fires in AR style platforms. This does make it so that a light strike will have a less of a change of going off.
CCI-250............................ Magnum primer, Mag primer mix, thick cup, standard anvil.
#34/7.62MM................... Mil. Spec. primer, thick cup, magnum primer charge, angle of anvil change.
I'm a fervent believer in the laws of statistics, especially Murphy's. I've been lucky with rifles, but I blew the left grip off a Jimmy Clark 38 spl 1911 with a friend's double charged reload. Still have that case with the blown out rear segment on my reloading bench since my chariot lacks a rider reminding me of my mortality. I have taken to uniforming the primer pockets of rifle cases to make sure they aren't shallow - that's a direct result of the slam fire issues and an easy way to minimize one variable. I have several thousand rounds of GI and other factory ammo for the Garand and M14, so reloading isn't a pressing need. At my age, I need to start shooting it up since it ain't gonna fit in the coffin...
I am about as anal as you can get when it comes to reloading. Everything....and yes that means EVERYTHING is at least double checked.
I read threads about inconsistent loads.....really how.....only way I can see it is you are doing it really fast. My cases are all measured and weighed before anything happens....powder is weighed as it comes out of the machine....those automatic powder drop machines are super cool....I have the RCBS version....then that charge is weighed again as powder and case get together for the first time....the boolits are weighed and sorted.....and oddly enough the FPS numbers are all right there.
I can appreciate you attention to detail, but I only have one rifle that would benefit from that amount of... uh, anality. I don't have oodles of time to set there and weigh every charge or every bullet... nor would 90% of my firearms benefit from such. That doesn't mean my loads are inconsistent; if I'm having issues with an inconsistent load, it's most likely a mismatch of bullet and firearm, or a new load that is not yet proven.
Not to want to start an argument.....well kinda, I am the troll on this forum.....but I bet if you own more then one rifle you have more then one rifle that would benefit from that.
I started down the road with what most people do.....a "good" rifle trying to be made better.....and it was better....but not WOW LOOK AT THIS better.