Lockyer Wants Handgun Ammo Branded
He sees promise in laser etching system
By James P. Sweeney
COPLEY NEWS SERVICE
October 6, 2004
SACRAMENTO – For years, manufacturers have branded computer chips and airline parts with microscopic codes that identify each piece and protect against counterfeiting and theft.
The figures, etched with a laser and as small as the width of two human hairs, are nearly invisible to the naked eye but easily read with an electronic magnifying glass.
After a promising internal study, California Attorney General Bill Lockyer has concluded the same high-tech tracking system could be a powerful new weapon against crime, particularly gun violence.
Lockyer wants to brand all handgun ammunition sold in the state. The ammunition and information about people who buy it would be electronically recorded with the same system now used for gun sales and stored in a database available to law enforcement.
Lockyer and his top firearms expert have briefed law enforcement leaders on the system and the Democratic attorney general is expected to introduce it at an anti-crime summit this week in Los Angeles.
The move figures to touch off the next big fight over gun-control in California, which already has some of the most stringent gun laws in the nation.
"Most of the guns used in crime – 80 percent – are handguns," said Randy Rossi, director of the firearms division at the state Department of Justice. "We want to see how well this works and give it a sunset. If it doesn't work, abandon it. But there is no reason in the world to believe it won't work."
The plan would require putting serial numbers on all handgun ammunition possessed in public, sold or imported into the state. To accommodate law-abiding sport shooters and those who reload their own cartridges, anyone on their way to or from a shooting range or hunting trip would be exempt. It's unclear how this provision would work, with supporters acknowledging that details on many aspects of the system need to be worked out.
The microstamping system under study was developed by a Washington state company, Ravensforge. The company engraves shell casings and bullets with a matching serial number. All of the cartridges in a box packaged for retail sale would have the same serial number, which could be scanned and linked to a purchaser's driver license number, Rossi said.
The state's more than 1,600 licensed firearms dealers already have the electronic equipment to record the information – scanning the code on the ammunition box and electronically swiping the driver license – in the same way they collect required personal information for gun transactions.
Rossi initially was skeptical that a bullet's number would be legible after it was fired.
A test of 200 rounds fired from close range into walls, car doors, bulletproof vests, rubber matting and a gel designed to simulate a human target convinced him the technology is sound.
Of 181 slugs recovered – including soft lead bullets that largely flattened out – the tiny code could be read on 180 of them with a simple electronic magnifying scope.
"We tried to prove this doesn't work," he said. "To have it work virtually every time, I was very surprised."
Lockyer seized on the system as an alternative to ballistics fingerprinting, which relies on unique, microscopic imperfections in shell casings and slugs. The attorney general angered gun-control advocates last year when his office concluded that ballistics imaging required a massive database and would prove ineffective unless launched as part of national system.
By tracking ammunition, which Rossi said has a relatively short shelf life, the state could develop a much broader database than an alternative that applies only to new handguns.
The attorney general's aides concede the microstamping proposal faces daunting political and financial obstacles. Manufacturers, gun-control and gun-rights activists – none of whom were involved in the initial study – are raising questions.
Gary Mehalik of the National Shooting Sports Foundation, a trade association for manufacturers of ammunition and firearms, said the caliber of guns used in any test could have been a critical factor in the results.
The state tested 9 millimeter, .38, .40 and .45 caliber handguns. No .22 caliber weapons were used and microstamping has not yet been applied to .22 caliber ammunition, the most common used by sport shooters.
Rossi and Paul Curry, a lobbyist for Ravensforge, said the serial numbers could be applied for a penny or less per cartridge. But Mehalik predicted it would be expensive to add a manufacturing process that matches casings and bullets, and then packages them in a box with the same code number.
"We'd have to analyze the costs, but I can tell you that it would create a logistical nightmare inside the current production systems," Mehalik said.
A leading gun-rights group dismissed the proposal as an ill-conceived, high-tech version of gun registration.
"The technology is certainly there, but all of the technology can be defeated by anyone who wants to defeat it," said Sam Paredes of the 30,000-member Gun Owners of California.
Many gun owners make their own ammunition and reuse lead and shell casings, Paredes said.
"Gang members in South Central or East Los Angeles, they're going to know this ammunition is tainted," Paredes said. "So they're going to pay somebody a little bit of money to load some ammunition for them and they're clean."
But they won't be legal if caught with unmarked ammo in public, Rossi said.
"We could get some gang bangers who all of a sudden take an interest and study reloading . . . but I hardly think so," Rossi said. "These are the same people that won't even bother to put a glove on when they're committing a crime or put some mud on their license plate.
"This won't solve every crime, but it will solve a lot of crimes."
Lockyer Wants Handgun Ammo Branded
- Thread starter Deathwind
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Greg L
Member
But that stolen pistol that is also in their pocket at the time is suddenly legit then?
Ya think? Are they going to do detailed strip searches of every person/vehicle/container entering the state? Couldn't you just say that you were buying it for range use rather than you needed it to go hold up the local bank? :banghead:
(we need a smilie button that will insert the standard SW line about beaches & mountains w/ one click
)I'm so glad that I went over the wall 20 years ago
eek: I'm getting old ).Greg
George S.
Member
didn't the Governator just veto a CA bill that would have required ammo purchasers to be recorded? Sound's like this is trying to be an end run around the original bill.
While the tchnology sounds interesting in the name of solving crimes, it's just a high-tech way of the next step in taking away the rights of citizens. CA is bad off as it is, this would be close to a final step in a state-wide gun ban. And it's interesting that he is only talking about handgun ammo. Apparently nobody in CA is killed with rifles? Especially with those horrible "assault rifles"?
It's funny that he only mentions cost when talking about how the ammo would be labeled. While the cost seems cheap, creating the system to track the data and build databases and then finding some way of getting information from a bullet used in a crime, making the data available to law enforcement for investigation and district attorneys to be able to use the evidence would cost the state millions of dollars.
Having worked in state government IT shops and seeing brand new systems designed, programmed and launched, something like this would take years to do and given the normal amount of problems in new systems and the ongoing upgrades, it would fail given the current state of the budget in CA and the Governator would veto any legislation that tried to create such a system.
Wonder if Finetwit is going to get behind this idiot and press for a new nationwide law.....
While the tchnology sounds interesting in the name of solving crimes, it's just a high-tech way of the next step in taking away the rights of citizens. CA is bad off as it is, this would be close to a final step in a state-wide gun ban. And it's interesting that he is only talking about handgun ammo. Apparently nobody in CA is killed with rifles? Especially with those horrible "assault rifles"?
It's funny that he only mentions cost when talking about how the ammo would be labeled. While the cost seems cheap, creating the system to track the data and build databases and then finding some way of getting information from a bullet used in a crime, making the data available to law enforcement for investigation and district attorneys to be able to use the evidence would cost the state millions of dollars.
Having worked in state government IT shops and seeing brand new systems designed, programmed and launched, something like this would take years to do and given the normal amount of problems in new systems and the ongoing upgrades, it would fail given the current state of the budget in CA and the Governator would veto any legislation that tried to create such a system.
Wonder if Finetwit is going to get behind this idiot and press for a new nationwide law.....
Oleg Volk
Moderator Emeritus
That would work great for all the surplus ammo out there
Aguila Blanca
Member
Remember the old joke about the space aliens who conclude that "There is no intelligent life on this planet."?
Sounds like they were looking at California.
Do these twits believe that gang bangers BUY their ammo at the local Wal-Mart?
Sounds like they were looking at California.
Do these twits believe that gang bangers BUY their ammo at the local Wal-Mart?
If they're planning to etch each bullet and brass with the same sn, the two need to be together so the etching is above the rim on the bullet. How deep is laser etching?
Seems to me a banger could take steel wool to the bullets and remove the tags in the copper jacket. It doesn't leave internal stresses such as that left in a steel pistol frame with the sn ground out. The tagging will work as long as everyone cooperates and leaves the etching alone, but it may be very easy to defeat. As for the cases, they stay in the revolver.
Seems to me a banger could take steel wool to the bullets and remove the tags in the copper jacket. It doesn't leave internal stresses such as that left in a steel pistol frame with the sn ground out. The tagging will work as long as everyone cooperates and leaves the etching alone, but it may be very easy to defeat. As for the cases, they stay in the revolver.
TallPine
Member
Really, like only 100 years or so ...
Brett Bellmore
Member
Come again? A relatively short shelf life compared to what? Bricks?
I think the key to this plan is that they want to label all ammo made in California, outlaw the importation of ammo from other states, and then they'll start banning the manufacture and sale of ammo they don't like.
Like the stuff that fires.
Sam Adams
Member
Anyone could buy their ammo out of state. If I lived there, I would. I'd stick the ammo in my trunk and drive home at exactly the legal speed limit - let's see them try to make any examination of the contents of my trunk hold up in court.
As with ALL gun control, only the law abiding will be affected. In other words, it will raise costs for the decent people of Kalifornistan, while the gangbangers will still murder people for fun and profit. As others have said, they will pay someone to handload ammo for them, should that become necessary to avoid the tracing.
This would end the shipping of surplus ammo, normal bullets and normal brass cases to CA, thus costing businesses money and employees their jobs. Great idea in a state that is hungry for money.
As with ALL gun control, only the law abiding will be affected. In other words, it will raise costs for the decent people of Kalifornistan, while the gangbangers will still murder people for fun and profit. As others have said, they will pay someone to handload ammo for them, should that become necessary to avoid the tracing.
This would end the shipping of surplus ammo, normal bullets and normal brass cases to CA, thus costing businesses money and employees their jobs. Great idea in a state that is hungry for money.
Brett Bellmore
Member
Riverdog, I suspect that they'd want to etch the serial number someplace on the bullet and cartridge that's more protected from erasure, like maybe the inside of the cartridge, and the back end of the bullet. The story does mention that there'd be some difficulty involved in making sure the right bullets wound up in the right cartridges, so that fits.
What if the number is tied to a counterfeit driver's license? Do they plan to verify the driver's license at the point of sale? If so, they could post cops at WalMart and pick up persons with warrants, dodging child support, etc. Not to mention any other "enemies of the state".
And under what authority do they plan to impose this? I'm "legislatively challenged" and don't understand how they can compel people to make their wet dreams reality?
And under what authority do they plan to impose this? I'm "legislatively challenged" and don't understand how they can compel people to make their wet dreams reality?
El Rojo
Member
And you guys thought I was going overboard when I bought 10,000 150 gr. FMJ/BT .308 bullets from Graf and Songs a while back.
This state just keeps getting better and better. When are the good citizens of this country going to start moving back into California so we can retake this place?
This state just keeps getting better and better. When are the good citizens of this country going to start moving back into California so we can retake this place?
feedthehogs
Member
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2003
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- 1,801
Welcome to the US and free enterprise.
Do you think the usual suspects in California came up with this?
No that company in Washington state, Ravensforge came up with the technology and said gee where can we make gobs of money.
Rights? Rights? People don't have rights.
Lets lobby California. They'll do it.
The owner of the company is out picking up his new Ferrari courtesy of law abiding gun owners.
Do you think the usual suspects in California came up with this?
No that company in Washington state, Ravensforge came up with the technology and said gee where can we make gobs of money.
Rights? Rights? People don't have rights.
Lets lobby California. They'll do it.
The owner of the company is out picking up his new Ferrari courtesy of law abiding gun owners.
Pilgrim
Member
Can you imagine the excitement that will be generated when a box of ammunition stolen from a law enforcement agency is used in a homicide?
Pilgrim
Pilgrim
sm
member
I can't wait to hear -
Lockyer finds out there is such a thing as Black Powder Firearms.
Next thing we will hear how the gangbangers became tired of totin' them .50's ( the preferred choice of GBs I hear) and went to 1851 Navy's ....
Lockyer finds out there is such a thing as Black Powder Firearms.
Next thing we will hear how the gangbangers became tired of totin' them .50's ( the preferred choice of GBs I hear) and went to 1851 Navy's ....
doger5
Member
Just more rules for the people, from the commiar. The new rule will work as well as the "assualt weapon" ban did for BofA in North Hollywood.
Cosmoline
Member
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CRIME PREVENTION!!!
It's merely yet another attempt to create a regulation so innane and complex that it will make selling any ammunition at all in Kalifornistan essentially impossible. Having to have matching SN's on bullets and shells would be absolutely cost prohibitive. That is the goal.
It's merely yet another attempt to create a regulation so innane and complex that it will make selling any ammunition at all in Kalifornistan essentially impossible. Having to have matching SN's on bullets and shells would be absolutely cost prohibitive. That is the goal.
Master Blaster
Member
Will they etch the serial number on the 200 odd shotgun pellets in each shotgun shell as well??????
What about all those illegal immigrants? Won't this be discrimmination against them, or will a consular matriculatta card be substituted for a drivers license.
Did Lockjaw forget about his friends????
Maybe they could just put the crimminals in jail when they commit a crime.
NAHHHHHHH that would never work.
What about all those illegal immigrants? Won't this be discrimmination against them, or will a consular matriculatta card be substituted for a drivers license.
Did Lockjaw forget about his friends????
Maybe they could just put the crimminals in jail when they commit a crime.
NAHHHHHHH that would never work.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
What are they planning to do about the thousands of rounds of ammo already being stored inside California's borders? If they make people mark that it will be practically impossible to enforce the law without draconian measures.
If they grandfather unmarked ammo, then people will just buy their ammo out of state and haul it back home claiming that they bought it prior to the registration law.
Either way, they create a massive new bureaucracy and a law that cannot be enforced in any remotely free society.
If they grandfather unmarked ammo, then people will just buy their ammo out of state and haul it back home claiming that they bought it prior to the registration law.
Either way, they create a massive new bureaucracy and a law that cannot be enforced in any remotely free society.
Lonestar.45
Member
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- 1,077
Hmmm....so, what happens when you fire off 50 .45's at the gun range, then pick up your brass (and Lord knows who elses), take it home, and reload it, like many folks do.....Then you've got brass with a number, and, what, bullets w/no number? Are they going to give numbers to bullets sold for the purposes of reloading? Then you'll have a bullet with one number and brass with another? What if you reload range brass, commit a crime, and the number on the brass is traced to someone else, the person who originally bought the casing? I can see them trying to outlaw reloading to get around that little issue (not to mention, hey, it's just dangerous for the common folk to have access to gunpowder, right?)
This is whacked. But, coming from Kalifornistan, it is not surprising I suppose.
This is whacked. But, coming from Kalifornistan, it is not surprising I suppose.
Greg L
Member
Time to only shoot revolvers at the range :banghead: .
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