Long Range Deer

[Mencius]

What grain bullet would you think would be best from a .308 on a deer at 300 to 400 yards? I would think possibly a heavier bullet like a soft point 180 grain but was also thinking maybe a little lighter/flatter shooting bullet like a 165 would be a good idea.

Of course, the person behind the rifle makes the most difference, and I realize I am not there yet, but once I do, what bullet do you think would be best at long range on a deer?

 

[shaggy430]

150 grain will be fine for deer out of a .308.

 

[Durty]

Any of those weights will be fine at 400. if I was you I would find out exactly what bullet that rifle likes best. Your biggest issue will be accuracy at that range- not foot pounds of energy. A 150 grain bullet will be a lot more effective just behind the shoulder than a 180 grainer in the gut. that said, if your gun stabilizes 180 grain bullets best (of whatever bullet you are shooting) you are be in good shape. how much do you typically practice at 400 yards, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[Mencius]

Yeah, I really do understand the need to be able to hit what you are trying to at any range, especially at the long ranges.

In answer to your second question I don't practice at that range at all right now. I am in the process of setting a range up on some land I have access to now and start learning the long range shooting. I will not take a shot I cannot make. I actually passed on a shot this year on a deer that was a little out of my comfort range (<200 yds) and ended the year deer-less.

I was just trying to figure out a "starting place" for bullet weights and then get a bunch of different brands in that weight range to see what the gun will group the tightest and go from there. I actually like the 180 grain Fusions now.

 

[Flintknapper]

For the purposes you state (hunting/deer), I believe you would be best served by using something in the 150/165/168 range.

Distances of 300-400 yd. (though longer than you are accustomed to shooting)...are not really "long range" shots on a deer sized animal (assuming you have a good rest and know your rifle).

The lighter bullets will offer a flatter trajectory and retained energy at those distances will be plenty for deer.

 

[Art Eatman]

Family experience has shown by example that a 150-grain bullet from an '06 is good to 500 yards on deer to field-dressed weights of 200 pounds and more.

Which takes us back to shot placement--which is the most important factor, and requires the skill to do it properly.

 

[Durty]

Sounds like you have a good plan. Is your rifle up to the task? You commented that it depends on the person behind the gun, which is right. However, I have shot plenty of rifles that are too inconsistent to shoot past 300 yards. What I am saying is, it also depends on the rifle itself.

 

[Mencius]

I think the rifle is up to it. It is a heavy barrel Ruger MKII in .308 with a leupold vx-III. It was a group graduation present many years ago. I think it will be up for some fairly long shots, but I guess I need to take it out and see.

Btw, to find the bullet it likes best do you think it would be best to go ahead and put it in a shooting vice and run several different bullets through it that way. Then, pick the bullet that groups the tightest, get a bunch of 'em, and start working on my shooting skills? It seems like at that point the only thing that needs honing would be me.

Flintknapper - You said up to 400 yards is not really long range for a 308 on deer-size animals. What would you consider the upper limits or long range for this combination (heavy barrel M77, vx-III 14x scope, .308)?

 

[Durty]

you have the right idea. you might have to invest in a few different brands and bullet weights to see what it groups the best. For example, I have a rifle that likes flat based bullets better than boat tails. in theory if it shoots a 1 inch group at 100 yards it ought to be able to shoot a 4 inch group at 400 yards. IN THEORY. (As you know, there are a lot of complex factors that come into play at that distance so its not that simple.) I reload so I shoot different bullet/powder combinations until I find a combination that shoots under an inch at the speed I want the bullet to travel. I just reload for hunting, not competition, so if I am shooting just under an inch, I am perfectly content.

 

[Daniel Boone]

Well - I think the thing that most people has to remember is that the 308 was a military round that was designed to replace the 30-06 Springfield.
The only advantage it had was that the case size was smaller and that it weighed less and that it had performance out to 500 yards that was similar to the 30-06 out to 500 yards - to within 15 feet of each other.
BUT that was with the 150 gr bullet.

When you go to a heavier bullet - you displace more case capacity and hence the case holds less powder and the bullet travels slower and has less power downrange then the 150 gr bullet in either 30 caliber round.

Because of my upbringing - I was taught why compare something to a 30-06 when you could have a 30-06 in the first place.
The 308 limits the amount of things that you can do with your rifle.

Because I do not know where you live, I would suspect that the reason why you wish to get into long range shooting is to validate your shooting skills - since it doesn't take much skill as a hunter to shoot a deer at 500 yards - because most whitetail deer will allow you to walk within 50 - 100 yards in most places as long as there is woods for them to hide in - and as long as they are not out in the open -- such as a bean-field in say Kansas.

 

[CSA 357]

alot of people think you should go to a lighter bullet for long range, i think you should use a heaver bullet for real serous long range.

 

[Flintknapper]

Mencius wrote:

Flintknapper - You said up to 400 yards is not really long range for a 308 on deer-size animals. What would you consider the upper limits or long range for this combination (heavy barrel M77, vx-III 14x scope, .308)?

Well...between 300-400 is not. There are factory rounds (Hornady Light Magnum) that would take you (ballistically) to 500 yds and a bit beyond with a 150 gr. bullet. I'm talking about having approximately 1,000 lb. ft. of energy still available.

The point being...the .308 is capable of cleanly taking deer well beyond 300 yds. and even 400 yds.

The limiting factor is how accurate any given load is out of YOUR rifle and your ability to make a good shot. IF you have a rifle capable of "Minute of Angle" accuracy (1" @ 100 yds.), then at 400-500 yds. we talking about 4"-5" groups under ideal conditions.

So...while the rifle/bullet combination might be accurate, when under "field conditions" (less than steady rest, crosswind, exact yardage unknown, etc), you still might need to "pass" on certain shots.

This is easily understandable when you consider the rifle is probably only capable of a 4" group at 400 yds. (the mechanical factor), then we add in the "human factor" (breathing, trigger control, flinching, etc) and thats probably good for another 1"-2" for most folks, so right there...you're likely to be off 5"-6" from point of aim BEFORE the influence of wind and range estimation (range can negated with a range finder).

Anyway, to answer your question: The cartridge (in common barrel lengths/22"-24") should give you a practical outer limit of about 500 yds.

Under perfect conditions...I would take that shot on large deer (Mulies or large Whitetail), but would pass on small deer (Coues, Texas hill country, etc). Much smaller targets.

 

[Robert Wilson]

FWIW, I would never take a shot at an unwounded big game animal at 500 yards. There is just too much that can go wrong. Yes, I know that there are people who can reliably make the shot - but in my experience there are far, far more people who only think they can make the shot. At the very least I always urge prospective long-rangers to try these shots under realistic field conditions. One shot out of a cold clean barrel, at a paper-plate sized target, from improvised field positions, at long but unknown distances. Bear in mind that a hit is a kill (bullet weight is so far down the list of considerations...) but a miss is a wounded animal that is likely to get away (and die a lingering, horrible death) before you can do anything about it. When you can hit the plate every time, on the first try, then you are ready for the real thing.

</sermon>

 

[NCsmitty]

When you can hit the plate every time, on the first try, then you are ready for the real thing.

That's the basic criteria, and whatever range that you can do that consistently, will be the maximum range that you should set for taking game.
It's a matter of learning your rifle and load, and lots of practice.


NCsmitty

 

[tango2echo]

I've used 44.5gr of Varget, CCI BR2, and the 168gr AMAX out of a .308 on deer to over 620 lasered yards and coyotes abit farther. I practice on clay pigeons glued to cardboard out to 800 and can hit 85%+ at that range. Do that enough and 400-600 becomes easy.

 

[Zak Smith]

Bullet construction makes more difference in terminal performance than mass.

Choose a bullet that is accurate in your rifle, has a reasonable BC, and has the right construction for the terminal effects you want.

 

[PowerG]

As others have stated, find the load your rifle likes best and stick with that. Have the trajectory of your rifle/load combination committed to memory (hopefully verified by shooting, not just from a ballistics table), or written down, with you. You either need to have a rangefinder of some sort or get very good at estimating distances to make clean killing shots, your group size will have opened way up even at 400 yards, and any hold-over must be based on accurate ranging to avoid misses or crippling shots.

If you do make a shot and the deer goes down try as best as you can to locate the deer with the scope and make sure it is down for good; sometimes at long distance the deer will simply disappear from the scope. If the terrain is rough or you're in a cutover keep in mind it may be some little while before you get to the spot where the deer was standing, so pay attention and make sure you can locate the spot when you get there. It can be very difficult to find a deer you've shot at long range, even if you've made a good shot. IMO this is one of the most overlooked aspects of hunting in this way in rough terrain.

The ability to make this kind of shot is a good thing to be able to do, but realistically I would advise against it, as the chances of crippling a deer greatly increase at long range-wind can mess you up, and errors in range estimation or the shot itself are always a possibility. I feel like I owe it to the game to make ethical shots, and personally I consider anything much past your maximum point blank a little iffy, and sorta unexciting compared to getting REALLY close.

 

[Mencius]

I really do understand about the person behind the rifle being by far the biggest and most limiting factor of this whole thing. The spot I am "preparing" for is over a pretty big bean field and the maximum shot from my stand is barely over 400 yards. (I measured it with a wheel, but forgot the exact range now.)

As far as range estimation goes, there is only one spot I go where shots are over 250 yards (which is still a decent shot for me at the moment). I have "marked off" various distances based on landmarks. I realize it is not perfect, but will get me pretty close. I am also looking at a laser rangefinder once I get myself ready for the longer shots.

Yes, being able to hit the plate every time with the first shot is the key. We generally use a paper plate (9") and if we can hit it five times, cold each time at a particular yardage we increase some.

I agree with the "marking" of where the deer went down. I realize the distances are nowhere near the same, but I have learned this in the dove field. I used to spend way too much time looking for a down bird because I did not mark it well when it fell. Heh, sometimes I still look away too quickly when I knock one down and have to walk around a while trying to find it. It helps me to mark it with something directly behind it to give me a line to walk and then mark with something in the general area. *shrug* Seems to work in the dove field at least.

And, really, in all honesty I doubt I will take any shots at more than maybe 250 yards or so. I might make one or two eventually, but probably not more than that. I would, however, like to have the confidence to make the shot, though. I guess you are right, I might just be validating my own shooting skills. Shooting from a bench and hitting a piece of paper at 400 yards is one thing, but actually bringing home some meat for the freezer under field conditions at 400 yards is another altogether.

The other thing I want to work on some is my deer stalking skills. Admittedly, as odd as this sounds, but I don't have a real good place for that right now. The way the land is set up where I hunt with other hunters and stands around, me walking around in the woods might not be the best idea. But, this is a different matter altogether...

 

[eastbank]

my rem 700 VLS 308 with a 26 inch barrel and a 6.5x20 veri xiii leupold with target knobs with a 1/8th dot,shooting match cases and federal match primers with 44grs varget and a 180 nosler bt bullet(2650fps) will do 3-5 inches at 500yds all day with no wind to contend with. eastbank.

 

[SimplyChad]

With my granpas 700 in .308 Ive taken large whitetail at close to 625 along a pipeline hes claimed that hes that hes taken them at 800. I normally call bs on such claims but back in the 60s and 70s he was a sniper go figure.

 

[Johnny_Come_Lately]

What grain bullet would you think would be best from a .308 on a deer at 300 to 400 yards?

All things being equal, I would use the bullet with the highest ballistic co-efficient since it will be least affected by Mother Nature. I certainly would not sacrifice accuracy for marginal gains in penetration. At 400 yards one MOA means the difference in a lung shot versus a gut shot or a heart shot versus a hair parting.

I would think possibly a heavier bullet like a soft point 180 grain but was also thinking maybe a little lighter/flatter shooting bullet like a 165 would be a good idea.

See above.

Of course, the person behind the rifle makes the most difference, and I realize I am not there yet, but once I do, what bullet do you think would be best at long range on a deer?

To be more specific, the ability of the person behind the rifle to execute a smooth trigger squeeze while holding the gun perfectly steady.

That being said, if it were me, I would determine my maximum successful range given a variety of circumstances further reduce that by 10%. Any animal outside that distance lives to grow a little bigger for the next time we meet.

My 2¢

Good Luck and Happy Hunting

 

[Art Eatman]

Beanfield hunting? Me, I'd put range stakes out at 300 and 400 yards. Inside of 300, there's no particular problem with trajectory. With the 150-grain zeroed at 200 yards, you'd be around six inches low at 300 and about two feet low at 400. No big deal, really.

Beyond 300, wind is the main factor. I've held two feet off center at my 500-yard gong, with just a "nice breeze", not really "windy".

While the Sierra 150-grain SPBT can blow up when pushed too fast, it wouldn't be moving all that quick from a standard-length .308 compared to my 26" '06--and my blowup happened on a 30-yard shot. I'd happily use that bullet for your conditions.

As far as factory ammo goes, the Federal Premium High Energy load is very, very good. I bought a box from curiosity and found their '06 load to be as accurate as my handloads. A 165-grain Sierra HPBT at 3,150 ft/sec is potent for longer shots, for sure.

 

[T.R.]

I've hunted throughout the western states and have never taken a shot at mule deer farther than approx 225 yards. Most were shot at about 125 yards or so. The buck in this photo was taken with a cross canyon shot with my Savage lever action rifle in .308 and FEDERAL HI SHOK ammo - 150 grains. The buck toppled over at the shot. He never knew what hit him.

Stalking is at least 75% of the fun for me!!

TR

 

[nathan]

Closing in for the kill as they call it.

 

[Hangingrock]

200yds standing off hand (10) shot (5) rounds X-Ring 3ӯ and (5) rounds 10-Ring 7ӯ

It would appear that I can keep all (10) rounds fired in a 7”Ø circle at 200yds standing off hand. May I add that’s on a good day and if we apply the 8” rule that’s my practical limit for hitting a deer in what I consider the vital area behind the shoulder centered on the main body trunk height.

That said if shooting from sitting or prone positions then in all probability my effective range increases. Should some type of rest be available that’s a bonus which also in all probability increases my effective range. This is all fine and good if one gets a deer’s position broadside shot as opposed to a facing or an oblique. I’ll exclude the rear going away position.

I also realize there are regions in the country that shooting distances in excess of 200yds are more prevalent then where I’ve hunted. All things considered I’m not going to take shots at what I consider extended ranges which others may accept as their normal hunting conditions.