Long range hunting question

[41 Mag]

Art your totally right about the wind being the worst part of it. When I began working out beyond 300yds, it was a whole new experience. I knew the ballistics and what the bullets were supposed to do, but when you throw in a gusting wind over a steady one it makes your learning curve that much more abrupt.

Fortunately I have access to plenty of property in which to wring out shots to as far as I feel comfortable. It is definately humbling to start out a group in perfect conditions at around 1" at 500 only to have a small 3-5 mph breeze come up and blow it for you. However it does teach you a lot about watching the surroundings and what moves in that condition and what doesn't. Then by paying attention to the various native plants and how they react in known winds, you can pretty well get close enough to make a first shot kills on most game animals in the deer class size. Now with posket wind meters and range finders the prepared hunters are using the ranges in which kills are being made is also increasing. My best group with one particular rifle is just under 10" at 1150yds. Would I shoot a deer this far, nope but I would definately drop him at 800 easily with that rifle, and under the proper conditions.

I can see both sides of the coin here as well. But what gets me the most is like what hammy said, he simply asked a question about bullets, he wasn't looking for personal hunting ethics or opinions simply bullets.

I have been there myself in posting about making a long distance shot on hogs. Some folks and areas consider them to be a valued game animal, however here they are no better,( other than eating), than a gofer, field mouse, or prairie dog. They aren't native and they are totally destructive to the whole enviroment they inhabit. State can't control them, everybody wants them until they have them, folks want to come in and hunt them but since the frivilious lawsuits abound nobody will let them so it's a catch 22. WE shoot them on site and take the ones we can and leave the rest. To some it's a waste, to most here, it's good riddence and why didn't you get more.

 

[taylorce1]

Well I'll admit to taking a shot beyond 500 yards on deer and I got it. It isn't a shot I'd like to repeat all the time but not one I'd necessarily pass up either. I like to be a lot closer, but I've practiced with this rifle and cartridge a lot and plugging coyotes at 400+ has never been a problem for me with this rifle. I don't hunt heavy woods or any thing like that but mainly wide open plains and sometimes you just can't close the gap. If I've done everything I can to get closer and it isn't possible and I take that long shot, then I feel I've still hunted the animal and not just sniped it.

 

[Quigley]

600 yard whitetails???

The 30-06 and 300 Mag are capable at this range however at this range they are marginal for game of that size. I'm glad your shot hit its mark and you got your quarry. The 168 and 180 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of 3000FPS falls to 1200-1300 lbs of energy at that range the minimum required for a clean kill on a deer sized game is 1000. The optimum game weight for this round at 600 yards with the 168 grain bullet is 252 lbs the optimum game weight for the 180 grain is 289 lbs. Game bigger than a deer are an absolute no-no at this range. If you are comfortable shooting at this range I hope you are equally comfortable walking the 600 yards to make sure you hit or missed your target.

 

[~z]

"The optimum game weight for this round at 600 yards with the 168 grain bullet is 252 lbs"

So it would not work on a 253 lb animal?

If you shoot long range, shoot long range. If you dont, dont.
~z

 

[oldhammy1]

Quigley,

Please start from the begining and read the ENTIRE thread. I hunt coues whitetail deer, that max out at 160 lbs. It is rare that they are more than 120 lbs. Re-run your numbers, and let me know where I stand.

 

[Harve Curry]

The coues I used to hunt south of Oracle Arizona were big at 100 pounds. Some I killed were 80-85 pounds.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is shooting up or down hills. If it ranges 600 yards down a steep slope, it may only be 500 yards across the face of the earth, which is the distance that matters. So you'd figure that in and shoot for 500 in that case.

The coues I shot at 625 yards was downhill, hold over was for a 500 yard shot. The 150gr, 308 Win SP Hornady bullet entered right side behind the shoulder, came out the breast hitting the heart, and broke off the left front leg. That and some others gave me alot of respect for the damage a bullet can do.

 

[~z]

Wow, you must have been way up there!
~z

 

[Wildfire]

Ballistics

Hey There:
I am not going to get into the yardage issue and ethics. I am a long distance shooter and do not want to go there. But as I read some of these I found the ballistics to be sort of off. The 165 grain BT. and the 180 grainer both at the same muzzle velocity have very little difference in remaining velocity and or energy at 600 yards. Their trajectories are right at about 2" difference in fall. What very little more energy left by the 180 at that distance will not amount to much on that Deer. Hopefully, This will not start some sort of arguement because someone did not read this right.
The .300 Win mag may be a better choice for that kind of range.
Precission shot placement is the only way to ethically take a shot at that distance. No hold overs. Scope adjustments to exact yardages. Yes.....
If you are using a BDC scope it must match that round exactly or you are still guessing. Then you need to figure in the wind. Once you are dead nuts sure.
You must now remember that energy at that range is on the marginal side at best. Other than that sounds like you did it, at least once.

 

[Guns_and_Labs]

There are guys over at http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/index.php who know a lot more than I about the bullets to choose for a given caliber for long range hunting. And they will not comment on the distances involved.

I do know that the trick, at least for me, is to get the highest BC. Which is why I've stuck with 7mm and 6.5mm. With a really long, ULD bullet, like Richard Graves' Wildcat Bullets, the 7mm Firebird (Lazzeroni) is hard to beat, though I keep meaning to upgrade to a 7mm Allen Magnum. Likewise in the 6.5mm. For the .300WinMag, you might want to see what the custom bullet makers like Graves can provide. But then, with those bullets, you may need a custom twist barrel and potentially a custom chamber/throat.

 

[oldhammy1]

Thanks Wildfire,

You and I are exactly on the same page!

 

[Quigley]

Old Hammy 1

I'm sorry for assuming you where hunting whitetails...
Here your figures.
At 600 yards the 180 grain with MV of 3000 FPS falls to 611 Ft Lbs and has an optimal game weight of 92 lbs.
At 600 yards the 168 grain with MV of 3000 FPS falls to 570 Ft Lbs and has an optimal game weight of 80 lbs.

I congratulate you on your shot!

 

[oldhammy1]

Quigley,

Thanks for the adjustment. I am wondering which bullet type you are using in your calculations. When I use rem shoot with a nosler balistic tip(180 grain), I get

600 yards= 1532 ft-lbs
800 yards= 1132 ft-lbs
1000 yards= 732 ft-lbs

I will need to go to handloads.com to look up the 165 data, as rem shoot doesn't show any.


I have found that using a ballistic tip bullet makes all the difference in the world out past 350 yards.

Hammy

 

[Wildfire]

I'll have to go with the higher specs.

Hey again.
The higher specs look right to me . Don't know where the low specs came from but they are too low. My .308 has more energy then that at 600 yards.
Anyway. Every one is thinking now.
Still watching.

 

[stovepipe699]

OLDHAMMY1, I think the 165 grain bullets could work just fine in a 300 Win Mag. I shoot a 30-06 with 165 BTSP's and the whitetail I shot at 420 yards dropped very nicely. My neighbour shot a BIG 7x7 whitetail buck at 700 yards with a 300 wby mag. The bullet used was a BarnesX 165 gr and it went right through the boiler room. The deer only made it 20 yards. He has since rechambered to 300 Ultra mag. For shooting purposes , I have been told that a heavier bullet would be better for long range(better B.C.). I imagine you want the 165(rather than 180) because of the smaller size of the coues deer. I say try 165 and 180 bullets, and see how they shoot, and how they kill. My opinion is that a heavier bullet than necessary for the size of animal should work fine(better too heavy than too light).

 

[oldhammy1]

Update

Took the 300 out during the break with some factory Federal 150's. Chrono'd them at 3400 f/s. I plan on loading some 165's this weekend. I am using nosler balistic tips, with CCI 250 LRM primers, and 73 grains of IMR 4350. I am expecting somewhere around 3225 f/s, and we will see how tight the groups are. This load is a little on the hot side, so I will probably load a handful with a grain or two less, in case my groups are not holding with the higher pressures. Thanks for all your replies/advice.

 

[moosehunt]

Nobody has mentioned going up to 200gr. I wonder why. Not as flat, true, but at long range, that's not the issue. As I'm sure the shooter who started this (yes, I said shooter, but he is a hunter too; just word choice) well knows, it is knowing your shooter and knowing the range. A 200 grain, while a bit slower, tends to get more consistant at longer range and wind effect, while far from being eliminaterd, is indeed reduced. Might be worth a thought, even though I am well aware you only asked for 165-168 info.

 

[Art Eatman]

Messing around at my 500-yard range with my '06, I found no particular difference in trajectory among the Sierras: 150-grain SPBT; 165-grain HPBT, and 180-grain SPBT. I had zeroed with the 150s.

26" barrel; probably around 3,000 ft/sec for the 150s.

FWIW, Art

 

[oldhammy1]

Grouping

So ART,

How is your grouping at 500 yards? Just curious.

Update- I loaded up 50 165 gr nosler balistic tips, and went out and shot up 20 of them. I also added a limbsaver recoil pad, which made life a little easier. Shoots great! The trigger pull is a little heavy, so I plan on replacing it with a basix in the near future. Until then, it will be hard to really know how tight the load is grouping. For those of you that want to see what a world record coues whitetail deer looks like, go to cousewhitetail.com, click on discussion forum, and then click on hunting in mexico. This will give you a feel for how the largest coues is more in line with a medium to small sized mulie or easter whitetail. Thanks for all your help. Eventually I plan on doing some comparisons with 150, 165, and 180's. For now, just trying to get set up.

 

[.38 Special]

Just a few of points, none of which should be taken personally...

I'm a hunter of the western "wide open spaces" and tend not to buy into the "It's impossible to get any closer!" bit I occasionally hear from fellow westerners. A patient stalker can almost always get within 300 yards of prairie game, including pronghorn. Most of the people I've known to say "You can't get that close!" have never really tried.

Along the same lines, just about all the "Hail Mary" shots I've seen attempted were ill-advised, and met with results from poor to unacceptable. I'd bet that's the usual outcome of such affairs.

The people who are reliably capable of making such shots are generally not the sort to show up at a website asking basic questions about ballistics.

The OP may, of course, be an exception to all of the above. It would be a rare enough exception, IMO, to explain the somewhat rough treatment he's recieved here.

 

[Art Eatman]

1970 vintage Weatherby Mark V; 26" '06. Simmons 44Mag 3x10. Canjar trigger. About 4,000 rounds through the rifle, give or take a hundred or three. The rifle has pretty much been a 3/4 MOA critter since new; 1-1/4 MOA for ten-shot groups.

I got two four-shot groups with the 165-grain bullets of four inches each at the 500 yards. (Well, twelve rounds got used up in getting the scope adjusted. Once that scope is set, it's fine. Getting there is not half the fun.)

I ran a string of ten rounds of 180s, not real slow but not hurried. I called two fliers and had eight shots in six inches.

I later changed from 4064 to H414 with the 180s, and got a three-shot group at 100 yards of 0.4 MOA. Prior groups had run about 3/4 MOA. (This new load is what Justin used on his elk.)

Hope this helps,

Art

 

[oldhammy1]

Thanks, and no thanks

Art- Thanks for the info.

.38 Special- If you go back and read how this thread started, all I asked for was some simple advice. I gave some background as to why I was looking for some help. What I got, for the most part( aside from a few who did help), was literally attacked and pre-judged for my shot this last season. I did not ask for this, but since it was offered, I decided to defend myself. The debate can go on and on. When all is said and done, each hunter has to decide what his limits are, and make decisions that he/she has to live with. These decisions, as long as within the hunting regulations/laws of the state, are up to the individual hunter. I actually agree with most of your post, believe it or not, I just think there is really something to be said for disagreeing with someone, and doing it in a respectful way. In the end, remember, all I was asking for was some caliber and ballistics information.

 

[.38 Special]

Fair enough, mate. I just hoped to provide some perspective. Personally speaking, I'm about the most mellow, laid-back person you could ever meet IRL, but get genuinely upset at people who are willing to cause suffering to stroke their own egos -- not that I'm calling anyone out here at THR.

I suppose I really should try to give the benefit of doubt to folks who talk about their long-range shots at THR. Every last one of them may actually be capable and competent marksmen. It's just that I've met too many folks who talk big about their long-range prowess and then end up gut-shooting some poor critter at ranges that turned out to be way beyond their ability with a rifle. Nothing would make me happier than if we all stopped holding out long-range hunting shots as an important or desirable thing.

Huh. Here I've gone and got myself all worked up again.

 

[oldhammy1]

Contrast

Thanks .38.

I was thinking a little about this last night, and I wanted to bring up a couple of scenarios.

1. You are still hunting, alone, through some rough terrain, and a nice buck jumps out of a shadow and runs full blast up the hill. You have about 8 seconds to shoot before the opportunity is gone. Your range is 50 yards. Do you take the shot?

2. You are glass up a nice buck on a hill side, ranged at 300 yards. You are alone. He is walking at a steady pace, and you most likely have a couple of minutes time to take the shot. Do you take the shot?

3. You are glassing, and find a nice buck on the hill side at 600 yards. You have two friends on glass to spot for you. Wind is calm, you have a steady rest, and the buck is not moving. Several deep canyons separate you from the buck. Do you take the shot?


Assumptions- Your rifle caliber and load provides enough knock down energy at the three distances. You have practiced shooting at the three distances, and know the ballistics of your load, and your ability to make a reasonably accurate shot at that range. Your terrain allows for a clear shot. You have sufficient backdrop, so as to allow for a safe shot.

I could be wrong, but from what I have seen here, most would not have a problem with scenario 1 or 2. However, IMO, these two scenarios provide a greater risk of poor shot placement and recovery of the animal. There is even a topic in the current hunting forum about hunting deer with a 10 mm. Read it and see how many are bragging about how many deer they have killed at 50+ yards. For some reason, that seems to be just fine. I am not trying to say my shot is one others should take. On the contrary, most should not. My post in no way encourages others to shoot at any game at these distances. If you really step back and read what was initially asked, I am trying to put myself in a position where I have a greater chance of making a clean kill, whether at 50 or 550 yards.

In the end, I respect both sides of the arguement, and appreciate those that have posted.

 

[.38 Special]

1. You are still hunting, alone, through some rough terrain, and a nice buck jumps out of a shadow and runs full blast up the hill. You have about 8 seconds to shoot before the opportunity is gone. Your range is 50 yards. Do you take the shot?

Well, my first thought in that scenario is "Oops". When I still hunt, I consider "jumping" a buck to be a failure. Regardless, the answer to the question is "depends". There are times when I've been able to practice at a moving target and have gotten comfortable with lead. At the moment, though, I'm years out of practice. There's a good chance I'd pass on the shot and chide myself for having been careless enough to "jump" that buck in the first place.

2. You are glass up a nice buck on a hill side, ranged at 300 yards. You are alone. He is walking at a steady pace, and you most likely have a couple of minutes time to take the shot. Do you take the shot?

No chance. I'm glad you pointed out the risk of that scenario. Most hunters, in my experience, don't truly realize how far in front of your bullet that animal will be by the time it gets there.

3. You are glassing, and find a nice buck on the hill side at 600 yards. You have two friends on glass to spot for you. Wind is calm, you have a steady rest, and the buck is not moving. Several deep canyons separate you from the buck. Do you take the shot?

Nope. I've practiced extensively at ranges past 500 yards, and given realistic scenarios -- unknown distance, broken ground, field position (rather than a bench rest), etc. I can't make the first cold, clean shot with more than a 75% chance of connecting with the vital zone. That isn't nearly good enough. YMMV, of course.

 

[Art Eatman]

A lot of the deal about how one hunts or shoots has to do with how you were raised and how your folks did all that.

My father and his brother were exceptional shots--but to me, their abilities were normal and expected. So, I took it for granted that "That's the way you do it."

My father was known, in front of witnesses, to call a neck shot at 500 yards, offhand, and make it. Or kill running deer at well over 100 to 200 yards. I pretty-much naturally assumed that if I couldn't do that, something was wrong with me.

My uncle locked up the brakes of the jeep, stalling it and grabbing for his rifle. He'd seen a buck running toward a fenceline in front of us, at about 125 yards. He shot and broke the buck's neck as it jumped the fence.

For me, then, the idea of a neck shot on a standing-around gawking sort of buck is no big deal. Shooting at a running buck at a couple of hundred yards is just a basic thing. Making a successful shot at 300 or 400 yards is what I'm SUPPOSED to be able to do. That's just the basics, is all.

And sometimes all that Zen stuff is within my capabilities.

Art