Long range hunting question

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oldhammy1

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I was fortunate to shoot a whitetail at just under 600 yards this last season, and was comfortable at that range. I am looking to upgrade from 30-06 to 300 win mag. Most individuals I know use 180 grain boat tails with the 300 mag. I would prefer to use a 165 or 168 grain bullet. I know some rounds have an ideal bullet weight/type for optimum performance. Is there any information anyone is aware of that says that 165 or 168 grain bullets in the 300 win mag are not optimum. I realize this is a pretty open ended question, but am looking for some knowledge.

(Moderator-If I am in the wrong place, feel free to move this)
 
Were you hunting or shooting? :D No offense, I just have a personal shot limit around 400 yards. Too many variables to risk it on game when I know I can get closer.

For that sort of shooting, consider the 7mm STW, far better choice than a .300WM IMHO for a flat shooting, long range hunting caliber on medium game. If I hunted a lot out in the western mountains, I'd think about getting one, just don't need that around here. Yeah, the 06 might have done the job, but there are flatter shooting long range rounds out there that are better for the job.
 
Flat-shooting is a common but misguided desire for a long-range cartridge. The shooter's skill and confidence in his rifle is much more important.

Going from something sedate like a 0.4 BC 308 load up to a high-BC blistering 7STW, you're only going to gain about 50 yards of point-blank distance (for example to keep the POI +/- 3" from the POA), from about 275 to about 325 yards. Beyond that distance you need to use some method to compensate for bullet drop anyway.

-z
 
To hold over, nearly three feet for a 30-06 sighted in for zero at 200 yards to put a kill shot on a Deer at 600 yards, is more like slingin lead.

Was it a lucky shot that shouldn't have been taken? A 180gn bullet would have just less than 1300 pounds of Kynetic energy at 600 yards. Enough to kill, but a wind drifted shot might not dispatch the animal in a timely manner. A rump shot would not. He would have suffered and died a miserable death in winter or before then by Coyotes or a cat. Most of the hunting bullets don't perform as well when impacting flesh at the lower velocities also.

For long shots like that I certainly would not recommend anything lighter than a 180gn bullet with a good design and high BC that performs well from say 1900-3200fps. By performing well, I mean accuracy, expansion and weight retention upon impact. Remember, a 165gn bullet will retain less velocity and less kynetic energy at long ranges as the same designed 180gn bullet fired at the same initial velocity. I'll agree with Zak Smith, Both the 165 and 180gn bullets will still have considerable drop at 600 yards. At distance we cannot ignore wind drift from the smaller lighter bullets. In fact, even with heavy .30 bullets, wind drift can be quite concerning.

Now.. as for cartridge in the .30, I would push for something that has a muzzle velocity for a 180-190gn bullet to be ~3100fps. The .300winmag, .300WetherbyMag and several other wildcats fit the bill. At those velocities, a good bullet will still have 1900 pounds of energy all the way out to 500 yards. Needed for Whitetail or Mule Deer that might weigh up to 300 pounds. But you'd make a different choice for 100 pound Pronghorn.

Pick up a good reloading manual or program that has long range trajectory for various Bullet BC at given velocities. Then compare what you need in down range performance to the limited amount of cartridges that are capable of delivering that performance.

Remember, being a good shot does not make a good hunter. Many hunters are poor shots. Excellent hunters are those that combine hunting and shooting skills to take game at reasonable distances, dispatching them with minimal amounts of suffering.

-Steve
 
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Was it a lucky shot that shouldn't have been taken? A 180gn bullet would have just less than 1300 pounds of Kynetic energy at 600 yards. Enough to kill, but a wind drifted shot might not dispatch the animal in a timely manner.
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That's my problem with shooting over 400 yards, just too many variables like drift or up or down hill shooting and such. These days with laser range finders, yeah, you can judge the distance to the foot for drop, which is but one variable in the field. I can get closer by planning a stalk and that's half the fun of hunting out west IMHO. I don't get near as much fun out of shooting as stalking, gets the old blood a pumpin'. :D If I spook the deer, oh, well, I'll start spottin' again.

All moot around here, though, where 200 yards is about as far as you can see to shoot. My .308 is sighted for 200.
 
Mr. Oldhammy1,

As previously mentioned, in the .300 Winnie a 180 grain boattail bullet would be better for long range shooting, due to the higher ballistic coefficent and higher retained energy at long range. Also, when the buck of a lifetime that you are expecting to step out at 300 yards steps out at 50 yards, a 180 grain bullet will hold together better and keep your buck from looking like it was hit with a hand grenade.

Sounds like your .30-06 works pretty good, why change?

Just my .02,
LeonCarr
 
When and if I ever go back out west to hunt, New Mexico, it's probably going to be with black powder. The season is early, before snow falls, longer, and the deer less skittish, though I'll have to stalk within 100 yards. I've done the 350 across the canyon thing. The way New Mexico's seasons are structured, BP season is REAL attractive to me. Believe it or not, people do kill mulies out west with BP guns, they just have to use more hunting skills.
 
Coues deer are rarely more than 150 lbs, usually close to 100. My shot was in the dead calm of morning, within 1/2 hour of daylight. I had a friend spotting for me with 20 power optics. Previous to the hunt, I practiced out to 625 yards, verifying my ballistics, and range capability. I haven't posted here for a long time, and I think now I remember why. Every time I post someone has to chime in an be critical of what I (or others) are doing. I also love seeing the guys comment from back east who hunt from a tree stand over a deer feeder, question the hunting ethics of us out west, where the deer can see you from a mile away. It is not uncommon to glass up a deer at 2-3 miles, and attempt to get close enough for a shot. If you think I am just jerking your chain, come out one year to Arizona or New Mexico, and give it a try. I can't tell you how many little punks I have seen move out here from other parts, with photos and videos of their monster "trophies", and after a few days in the field, are convinced that their are no deer here. You have to be ready for every situation if you want success, and fortunately for me, I had practiced at a range sufficient to make a clean kill. He was dead before he knew it. It's a shame I have to explain/defend myself, when it seems some mutual respect of others ethics might not be a bad thing, at least once in a while. OK, I am off of my soap box. For those that provided advice, I appreciate it. I think I am just verifying what I already know, more than anything. If I have stirred up the pot a little, so be it.
 
I also love seeing the guys comment from back east who hunt from a tree stand over a deer feeder, question the hunting ethics of us out west, where the deer can see you from a mile away. It is not uncommon to glass up a deer at 2-3 miles, and attempt to get close enough for a shot.
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Boy oh boy do I understand and I agree with that . What is almost needed are two hunting forums. One for guys that hunt western open public lands and one for guys that hunt private land or pay to hunt and or from stands and over feeders. I have not hunted except in the west but what I read here and other places it must be almost a completely different world. I think a lot of misconceptions and failures to communicate are a fairly regular occurrence.
 
REYN-



30-06, 150 gr balistic silvertips, 61 grains of H4831, pentax gameseeker scope. Any other questions?
 
After watching these guys take an elk at 830 yards and and antelope at over 1000 I think maybe you where to close. Give the deer a chance :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCyTRzL5AAQ
I'd like to here what you find out as far as "perfect" weight for the .300win mag. I know all rifles are different but it might give me a starting point when I start to reload for mine.
 
I tried not to be TOO critical, holier than thou, understand everything you're saying about people from other areas of the country. If you like to shoot long range, fine. If you're skilled, great! I ain't tellin' ya how to hunt, just tellin' ya I don't know that much bein' I don't shoot over 400 yards. Someone said a 7STW ain't any better than a .308, well, okay, whatever. I'm not the expert, just that the numbers would seem to ME to give it quite a bit less drop out there at 600 plus. I've not run the numbers, though, and am too lazy to mess with it over a thread, LOL! But, for a guy that shoots 400 max, a 350 yard PBR is better than a 275 yard PBR. It means no hold over at all to my personal limit. I do have my drop tables taped to the scope to 500 yards for the .308, but around here that's not necessary.


Heck, for those coues, a .22-250 might be a good choice, or a .220 swift. :D It sure don't take a .300 mag to kill one. I'd STILL think 7 STW or maybe a .257 Weatherby or something, but I like 7mm bullet BCs. Also, if you handload, .264 Win Mag might be just the thing! I just don't care much for .300 mag, not very good BCs and excessive recoil. Long range shooting, lighter the recoil the better for ME. Of course, some guys just aren't affected as much by recoil and it hunting situations it don't bother me much, but at 600 yards, even a LITTLE flinch would put me off. I can shoot the 7 mag fine, though and an STW would be about as bad as a .300 mag, probably.

Just tossing out some ideas. Hope I didn't come across as thinking I knew anything, LOL! I don't have a rifle, more importantly a scope, set up for that sort of shooting. If I got into it, I'd want range compensation, maybe mil dot or some sort of drop compensating scope. having proper glass for such shots is pretty important and having a gun that can shoot 1/2 MOA or better would be nice. My stuff, 3/4 MOA is about as good as it gets. A 1 MOA gun gets you 6" at 600 yards, not that good for coues deer, ROFL! Might as well be trying to hit a jack rabbit.

Appologise if I came off snooty.
 
oldhammy1, you'd be surprised at how many times somebody starts out talking of some long-distance shooting, and we learn through the thread that they're just beginning to shoot and hunt, and have little or no prior experience. Hard to tell, sometimes, from an opening post in a thread just what the situation actually is.

One reason I like the Sierra reloading guide is for their appendices, with some of the best data on external ballistics of any of the guides.

IIRC, the 180-grain SPBT has less drop and wind drift than either the 150 or 165 out in the 400- to 600-yard ranges.

To stick some purely personal opinion in this, it seems to me that if you already know the drop numbers for an '06 and are using a range finder, there is little gain in going to 5% or 10% more "horsepower".

FWIW, with my '06 I got 0.4 MOA for three shots with the Sierra 180 SPBT and 54.0 grains (book max) of H414; 100 yards. 26" barrel Wby Mk V. I loaned it to Justin for his elk hunt and it seemed to work okay. :) With book max of 4064, I got right at one MOA for eight of ten rather-quick shots at 500, with two called fliers.

More FWIW: On steel at 500 yards, the little crater from the 180 was definitely deeper and wider with more splash than the 165.

Art
 
Oldhammy,
Congratulations on making that long shot, like you said you knew your rifle because you had been practicing at long range. I shot one coues deer at 625 yards, shot metalic silluettes all summer with the same Savage 99 308 rifle, so I know. Those coues deer are hardy animals and not to be underestimated, so a 7mm or 30 cal of at least 150gr is good at ranges over 300 yards. A good shot at long range is better then a bad shot at 50 yards. Certain amount of respect and satisfaction to see what you and a rifle bullet can do.
Since I made those long shots I've found more fun in hunting with early metalic cartridge breechloaders with iron sights and lots of trajectory. As long as my eyeballs :what:hold out and I can walk:eek:.
As to your question I keep two 30-06's with 165 /168 gr ammo.
 
Thanks for your comments Art and Harve. I am looking to pick up that 300 win mag in the next week or so, and as I work up and test different loads, I will post the results. Ideally, I would like to end up with a 168 grain silvertip, at about 3150 fps. For anyone out there that has not harvested a coues, I highly recommend the experience. It is awesome!! Once again, I appreciate all of your comments and info.
 
To defend my post if it offened you, You did not say you took a 150 pound Coues. Just that you took a Whitetail. Your profile does not list your location so I had to figure the possibility of an Alberta big boy.
As I said, you'd choose something different if taking Pronghorn at distance.

"Is there any information anyone is aware of that says that 165 or 168 grain bullets in the 300 win mag are not optimum."

In my experience, yes.

Most of us that work up a load try to fill the case just shy of a compressed load with a given powder when we've got the bullet seated just .001" from the lands. Fact is, many SBT's in the lighter weights don't allow even a caliber dimmension seating in the neck of the case when loaded that way. They just aren't long enough because they're a lighter bullet. Does this affect accuracy? In many rifles it does. Choice of bullet, or finding the one that works best in your rifle will be trial and error. There's also a bit to be said for the heavier bullet in it's inherant ability to stabilize since there's just a bit more contact with the lands as it scoots out the barrel.

Now, I'm not a long range competitor. I read a bit, and I've tried a few things. I shoot a 30-338 that is just about or right at 1moa with certain bullets. But just as I don't like Brussel sprouts, I haven't found a load/light bullet that it 'really' likes.

I would think that you're looking for a sub-MOA rifle to be sure to deliver a humane kill at those ranges.

I hope the .300mag gives you what you're looking for. Think of it this way.. If you ever come up north to hunt something bigger than dogs, you won't be under gunned. :D (I know, there's Elk down in NM too. Just joking!)

Oh, and I chose a 30-338 instead of a .300wm because I can get the roughly the same ballistics with nearly 20% less powder. The same idea as what they're doing with the WSM's now. I figure you're a reloader. Take a look at the .308 Norma or .30 Gibbs if you don't want a belted magnum. And for those smaller Deer, Yeah, the 7STW wouldn't be a bad choice. If you want to go lighter, higher velocity, then go smaller diameter. Maybe a 270 Weatherby mag?

-Steve
 
I am now officially convinced that many on this site are more interested in nit-picking and looking for disputes, than are looking to contribute to a civil discussion. Yes, I said harvested! So it wasn't the perfect ethical scientific hunting term, but if every single word I post is scrutinized and picked apart by individuals that may or may not be "qualified" to pass judgement, then I think I am posting on the wrong site. You knew exactly what I meant, and now that I have spent more time defending myself, when I was looking for some simple advice, I think I will call it a day here. For those who did provide some good information, I do appreciate it, and will try to apply it and make myself a better shooter and hunter (I'm sure at least one of the words I used here was offensive to someone out there, so I appologize in advance).
 
An explanation on the term "harvest". There's a thread down the page that gripes about the use of the term (personally, I have no problem with it) that is probably the reference to that rolling eyes post.

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=322834

I don't have a problem with "harvest". However, on the shotgun forum, I have this thing about calling a shotgun a "shotty". I try to refrain from comments, though, ROFL!!!!!!!

You will notice on that thread, yet another NW hunter jumping on Texas hunters for using feeders and stands and calling us "unethical". This is why I said I can relate to your gripe about other hunters from other areas. There are lots of "my way or the highway" types here. It starts arguments, but I like to argue. I guess that's why I'm here with so damned many posts in a few years. :D
 
OK, I'll put a target on my back for this one. I do not think I would ever take a 600 yard shot. When I hear stories abou super long range shots like this I wonder where the "hunting" comes in. I know we have firearms and ammo that is very capable of making these shots but personally I always figured if I could not get within at least 200 yards of an animal I wasn't doing a very good job as a hunter. As long as I have legs and lungs that work I will strive for as close a shot as possible and pass ones that may result in a wounded or lost animal. OK, I'm ready.......
 
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