long range pistol thoughts

[kBob]

Bear with me.

I have been watching some shooting common handguns way out yonder you tubes and folks keep trying to figure hold over. They use alsorts of 'puter programs on phones or what have you and then try to aim that high over a target.

Most of them speak of how silly it is that they can no longer see the actual target when they do so.

Have us Olde Pharts been doing it wrong all these years? Was ELMER wrong? (I can ask that because he is dead now, but may pay for it later)

Rather than trying to figure what else to aim at, AIM AT THE TARGET!

Change your sight picture. The target should sit on the front sight and you should clearly see the front sight and keep that target on the front sight. LOWER your rear sights in your field of view making a new sort of sight picture.

The top illustration is a normal sight picture/ sight alignment and the lower is the new long range sight picture and new sight alignment.

Don't argue with me until you try it. Once you have done it a bit get back to me. Start with just a hair of extra front sight then add more until you get on at your long range target. Old Elmer even had a bit of gold wire inlayed into some of his front sight blades to allow him a new reference point to balance between the rear sights and learned how much more or less to put on at varying ranges. Friends and I have used the red insert on S&W revolver sights of the 1970's or a line of white paint on the front sight.

Be sure you have a good back stop and don't start stupid far. 200 yards is very do able and you can frighten things out to 300 or 400.......even the BP pistol guys. It really helps if you can actually shoot well at 25 yards before you start trying for further out. You have to be able to actually shoot 4 inch targets at 25 yards to have a hope of hitting a one foot target at 100 or two foot target at 200 and a three foot target at 300.

If you have a safe place to try this that would allow you to do so, try it and get back to us.

No naysaying with out trying, please.

-kBob

 

[LoneGoose]

I have always held-over by keeping the sights oriented to each other, then aiming at an imaginary point a prescribed distance above the target. If I know that I have a 12" drop at that distance, I pick a feature in the background that appears at the estimated 12" hold-over point (at the target's distance) and aim at that. With the top edges of the front and back sights aligned, I get better control from shot to shot. I tried using the "piece of the blade" method but it doesn't work so well for me.

 

[susieqz]

heck, i can't even see 300 yards.
25 n 50 yards is enow for me.

 

[il.bill]

Man, 25 yards is long distance for MY handgun shooting!

 

[1911 guy]

It's an art that was lost when iron sights became less common and relegated by most shooters as "close range" sights.

Once upon a time, it was common knowledge that you aligned your sights and the front sight was placed varying distances up the rear sight for elevation. Used for both rifles and handguns, it sorta fell out of favor when optics became reliable and (relatively) cheap.

 

[Bula]

Didn't Elmer K graduate mark his front sight blades?

 

[Lazy R]

Longer distance handgun shooting is a kick. I've done a fair amount of it, and out to a certain range you can just give it more front blade. Too far and the rear sight ends up clear down out of the picture. It helps to have dry ground like a plowed field where you can mark your shots. A 300 yard 38 snubby competition can be a real hoot. Surprising after a while how close you can get to things.

 

[JohnKSa]

I had decent luck with the front sight up out of the notch. It's not as good as being able to adjust the sights for the proper elevation to match the range, but it's better than trying to align the sights conventionally to aim at a target that's completely obscured by the sights and gun because you're aiming so high. At least that's how it worked for me.

 

[kBob]

Bula,

From my original post,

" Old Elmer even had a bit of gold wire inlayed into some of his front sight blades to allow him a new reference point to balance between the rear sights and learned how much more or less to put on at varying ranges"

Biggest problem I have with straight hold over is sometimes there is nothing but sky at the "correct" hold over height or just more of the same un remarkable terrain.

If one has some sort of easily adjusted and repeatable sight system then that would provide a better means of target engagement. Those metallic silly-wet boys sure knocked over those 200 meter Rams. I know some used features of the scope reticule and some made adjustments. I see using the added front post height as much like when I use a single setting on my .22 rifle scope and use the "points" of my duplex scope reticules on rim fir rifle silly-wet. CHicken perches on the lower point, piggy stands on the center line, turkey gets the crosshair centered and ram has a point just showing light over his back. COmes in handy when field shooting having learned to do that for varying ranges,. This added front sight is the same for iron sighted handguns.

-kBob

 

[StrawHat]

I don't shoot a lot at formal ranges preferring to walk my property and that of my neighbors looking for targets of opportunity. Stumps, rocks, leaves, trash, even 5 gallon pails left by me for the purpose. I engage them from different angles and ranges using field positions. Once I see a target, I try to get the shot off in quick time as if I were hunting. Holding up the front sight is the only way I can manage to score hits. I have considered inlaying bars into the front sight but feel that would slow me down. I usually use a handgun that launches a 260 grain bullet at 900 fps. With rifles it is a lot easier as they shoot flatter.

Kevin

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I learned this tequnique by watching a Hickok45 video a few years ago and suddenly new distances were available to me. I'm not great at it because I haven't practiced much yet.

Hold the front sight on the target and adjust the elevation of the rear of the gun, just as the sight adjustment screw would do.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Change your sight picture. The target should sit on the front sight and you should clearly see the front sight and keep that target on the front sight. LOWER your rear sights in your field of view making a new sort of sight picture.

One quibble. The people who hold over are changing "sight picture" which is the relationship of the sights to the target.

The people who change the relationship of the sights TO EACH OTHER are changing "sight alignment."

The proper way to shoot long range with an iron-sighted handgun is to change your SIGHT ALIGNMENT and hold up more front sight.

 

[TfflHndn]

kBob's got it exactly right. Been using the described method for fixed-sight elevation adjustments for a while, but you still have to hold-over for "kentucky windage" if you have any breeze to contend with, if you don't have windage-adjustable sights. With just a little practice, it's fun to learn what adjustment in the sight alignment will do to your POI.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

I elevate the front sight as well.
Good to 240 yards with 3 different handguns:
[YOUTUBE]OgNxPvg8-yY[/YOUTUBE]

I plan on doing this same thing again with better vid quality.

 

[kBob]

The good Corporal's imbedded video points out another thing about the long range vids I find interesting......folks shooting way out past Fort Mudge while standing on their hind legs.

I like to go prone in what some pistoleros call the "roll over prone" the results being that both elbows contact the ground so I am not trying to balance my handgun atop all those bones and joints down stream. There is a description of this when engaging a 100 meter pop up target at 100 meters in Linda Evan's book Sleipnir, a fictional account of a real range day actually.

I have also when younger and more supple fired whil sitting on the ground sort of leaning back on the left elbow with the left leg straight, right knee cocked up with foot knee and hip in as straight a line as possible and the pistol arm rested on or along the right knee. Gets one a bit higher to shoot over grass, bushes and inter veining terrain.

I have also used the military kneeling position that used to be taught for using the handgun which is higher still.

I have been known to sit with my back to a tree with my feet pulled in so as to raise my knees high enough to rest both arms on them.

When laying about or sitting on my rear or even taking a knee is still not enough height to see the target I have been known to lean on a tree or over a car hood.

Basically anything that gets the gun more stable for shooting beyond rock throwing distance is a good thing.

-kBob

 

[buck460XVR]

The proper way to shoot long range with an iron-sighted handgun is to change your SIGHT ALIGNMENT and hold up more front sight.

Same way my grandpa taught me how to shoot long range with the Semi Buckhorn sights on his .32 Special Winnie. I used the same method for years with my old Daisy air rifle on tweety birds. Hard to hold over with a fat barreled B-B gun on a sparrow size target. Never knew what "hold-over" was till I started to use a scoped rifle. I think this is where many new shooters get the idea from and try and transfer it over to irons.

 

[BCRider]

Putting a couple of small grooves in the rear of the partridge front blade on my Super Blackhawk and filling them with paint or maybe gold wire is on the "To Do" list. The guns with the tall partridge front sights are great for using with this trick. Or perhaps I'm mistaken and doing the same thing to a sloped front blade would be better? With a sloping rear ramp the lines can be both wider and farther apart which makes doing the lines easier and should make the marks gather more light and stand out better?

And yeah, aiming at 100 and 200 yards and hitting some sort of gong makes getting out of bed all the more worthwhile....

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Same way my grandpa taught me how to shoot long range with the Semi Buckhorn sights on his .32 Special Winnie. I used the same method for years with my old Daisy air rifle on tweety birds. Hard to hold over with a fat barreled B-B gun on a sparrow size target. Never knew what "hold-over" was till I started to use a scoped rifle. I think this is where many new shooters get the idea from and try and transfer it over to irons.

Exactly right -- holdover works with scopes, because you can still see the target. But with irons, when you hold over, the target is hidden by the sights -- and then how can you tell how much you're holding over?

 

[Malamute]

Ive been more consistent with the front sight raised in relation to the rear, and the target perched on top where I can see it.

The red ramp inserts on Smith revolver sights give a reference point for the rear sight, as does a dot on a front sight. You can just get used to not having anything, and using memory and experience, but the reference points can help with first round hits. It isn't a matter of holding all the ramp or dot even with the rear, its just a reference point, you may only use a portion of it. It does break up the all black sight face and improves the general outlook in longer distance shooting.

With a g-19, holding the rear down about 2/3 of the dot, and the 18" 300 yard plate split by the front sight, its hitting fairly consistently. When I was doing it a lot, about 5-6/10 two handed, and 3-4/10 one handed. You need to hold a little more front sight up two handed, as the gun doesn't recoil up as freely when fired.

Shooting unknown distances, its basically educated guesswork for the first couple shots as to the hold, just to see where they are going. If you do it much, the guesses get fairly good.

Doing the sights even/holdover thing, I think people are using both eyes, and the off side eye seeing the target, like an occluded eye sight. Still, Ive found its harder to be consistant that way, and next time that rock or bush may not be around to use as an aim point on the hill above what you want to shoot at. At longer distances, the holdover is FEET, not a foot or a few inches. I actually have zero idea how much anything I shoot drops at any particular distance when shot from pistols, just shoot them enough that I have an idea how much front sight to hold up.

 

[murf]

regardless the method, aiming small is critical at long distances. aiming at an 18 inch gong is the wrong way to go. aiming at the bottom center of the gong is the right way to go.

murf

 

[Malamute]

aiming at an 18 inch gong is the wrong way to go. aiming at the bottom center of the gong is the right way to go.

My brain seems to want to try to split the target (aiming for center). Point of aim rather than 6 oclock. Seems to work relatively well. Every target, rock, bush, plate, whatever, is going to be a different diameter, so 6 oclck is going to give a different point of impact for the same range.

Id get more hits if I held 6 oclock?

 

[murf]

malamute,

no, the location of your aim is not important, but it is difficult, at longer distances, to accurately judge the center of an object. it is much easier to "see" the bottom center of a round object. also, at distance the front sight post is as big or bigger than the object being shot. it is important to place the center of the front sight post on the center of the object being shot.

murf

 

[Malamute]

I agree that a 6 oclock hold is generally easier to see and get a consistent and clean sight picture. My brain just tries to aim center. Its how I aim at most things with irons other than trying to shoot a group on paper, and am not concerned with exact point of impact or the scoring rings.

And yes, the front sight blade is much wider than the 18" plate @ 300 yards. I have a slight amount of windage misalignment with the g-19 I plink with at 300 yards, and the plate is about 1/3 in from the left, instead of perfectly centered. I should correct it, but I've gotten used to it I guess.

The Merit things that attach to your shooting glasses help with sharpening up the sights and target, but I forget to use mine most of the time.

 

[Captcurt]

One quibble. The people who hold over are changing "sight picture" which is the relationship of the sights to the target.

The people who change the relationship of the sights TO EACH OTHER are changing "sight alignment."

The proper way to shoot long range with an iron-sighted handgun is to change your SIGHT ALIGNMENT and hold up more front sight.

Done this for decades. It helps to mark your front sight but not mandatory. You will be amazed how well works. I have shot and seen targets shot at 150 yards with 22LR and with 357 GP out to 200. Never tried past 200. Can't do it now with cataracts,but like to try with my scoped contenders.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I wouldn't be amazed at all.

In fact, I think of the sight alignment as 3 dashed lines, ---. If you break the line, so you can barely tell it's a little out of whack ( _-_) you're holding up about .01 more front sight. With a 6-inch sight radius, that works out to 6 inches at 100 yards, just about right to hit a 5-gallon bucket at that range with a .45 Colt.