Long Range Reality

[Varminterror]

The internet can be very discouraging for anyone new or untrained in shooting. Every

That’s the saddest part, to me. So many guys will thump their chest and validate the money they spent on their long range rigs, and poo-poo anyone’s $350 rifle and $250 scope... there ARE legitimate reasons to spend more and you really do get more out of your rifles by spending more on custom built precision rifles, but if a guy is content to hit a car door at 1,000yrds, it can be done for less than $600. There’s no magic to it. If a guy can dial a phone number, they can enter data into a ballistic calculator which will get them on target at 1,000.

It’s actually kind of ironic - so many guys are on YouTube these days with their “AR at 1,000” or “milk jug challenge,” videos these days, you’d think there would be more guys realizing it doesn’t take a military trained sniper and a $10,000 rig to hit 1,000yrd targets. But unfortunately, the availability of information online doesn’t seem to encourage folks, it only seems to discourage them from trying.

$400 Sig Kilo 2200, $30 Caldwell Windwizard II, $20 Advanced Ballistics Mobile app, $150 in match/premium ammo, $30 rear squeeze bag, $60 Harris-knock-off bipod, and a $600-700 rifle and scope from Remington, Ruger, Winchester, Savage, Howa, Nikon, Bushnell, vortex, Leupold, Burris, Sightron, etc etc etc. Not really so different than any of the hunting rifles any guy might own already. Cardboard 2x2ft or larger squares and a four wheeler work for targets, but I prefer steel. I built my steel hangers for about $40 each, some angle iron, bolts and nuts, and spray paint, and my biggest 24”AR500 target was $150 delivered, which is a lot less than I have spent on shoot-n-c targets at 100yrds during the same length of time when I owned this one. That’s really all of the tools a guy needs to get out to 1,000yrds. That, and 1,000yrds where they can safely shoot.

 

[SamT1]

Yup almost all my stands are scrap iron welded together. The 800 yard one is an old swing set I found on th side of the road. Right now it has a 8” AR 500 plate hanging from chains and an old propane cylinder. I need to get a 24” plate. But I think I’m gonna try a big used tandem disk I have. I don’t think I’ll shoot through it that far.

 

[ridgerunner1965]

I'm just a average shooter.i don't really shoot at long ranges.

the farthest ive ever shot a deer was 300 yrds.it was a stretch of my capabilities.my rifle was fine, it put 3 bullets in the boiler room just like I aimed them. but during the shots I was not confident. the first bullet would of killed him.

but what I see a lot is guys that flub 100 yrd shots.

if more guys would shoot at longer ranges they would see how hard it is and refrain from it on game.

 

[Llama Bob]

I don't know about 600y, but under otherwise good circumstances I would take a shot at an elk at 500y with a my M70 7mm mag. When I'm done doing loads for it I'm sure my .264 will be suitable too.

The opportunity depends a lot on the location. We have our fair share of cross-canyon shots out west. Sometimes the stalk to get close is not feasible.

In terms of the ability, drop is no problem with a rangefinder and suitable scope. Wind is a problem. In good conditions a +- 2MPH wind call should be possible. That's +- about 4" with my 7mag at 500y. Add in +- 2.5" for fundamental mechanical and trigger pull inaccuracy off a ruck, and the shot should land in a 13" circle 100% of the time.

Honestly the bigger concern I have is flight time. As it gets up over 1/2 second, it becomes more and more possible for the animal to just get the urge to move while the bullet's on the way. Usually that results in gut shooting the animal since they rarely back up.

 

[IndianaBoy]

I have rung steel out to 700 yards.


The last time I shot my precision rifle I measured the wind with my Kestrel wind meter, dialed in one mrad for wind , lased a 10" steel plate at 706 yards, and dialed in 6.8 mrad for elevation. First round hit at 706 yards. And second, and third.


A few days prior I had a hell of a time finding the right dope due to shifting and gusty wind on plates the same size at only 520 yards.



There are some phenomenally talented long range precision shooters out there, who regularly make good hits on small targets out beyond 1200 yards. I am not one of them. Just learning to dabble in the PRS Gas Gun world.



Hunting? I won't take unethical shots. Last deer I shot was at roughly 10 yards.

 

[Muddydogs]

I've learned people out west have a whole different perspective on range since everything is wide open spaces where you can see for miles. They have to learn to make hits on game at 400+ yards out of necessity. Those of us in woods county have never faced this problem because deer don't wander around in the open if they have a choice so our shots are usually 150 yards or less and we have about 4 seconds to do it. Out west you have time to stalk and use the range finder and dial elevation and windage and all that which we do not have the luxury of time, or the need to do.

Not really true at all if you are a hunter, in all the game I have taken from Jack Rabbits to elk the furthest I have shot was a 120 yard off hand shot with my muzzy at a cow elk. Last antelope I killed in wide open WY was an 80 yard shot. Sure you can pull some long shots out West if you want to climb up some hillside and set on your butt all day long behind the bino's waiting for something to come out in the open but if you are wanting to get involved in the hunt and put some miles on the ground then more often then not the action is up close, personal and fast.

The problem with hunting these days and the thinking that everyone needs to be a snider is all the stupid hunting shows on TV and the internet. To get good footage they need the time to set cameras up, the way most of us old Western hunters hunt you don't have time to even get a firearm off your shoulder when it happens. We can always tell a want to be TV hunter as there hiking around with there rifle slung on there shoulder or worse yet over the pack frame with no chance of ever taking advantage of a quick opportunity.

 

[M118LR]

As a sport hunter is it really a necessity to even attempt a shot beyond the point blank range?
Way back when, folks used to get bragging rights based on the ability to stalk so close to game they couldn't miss. (Grab a Turkey with your hand. Now that's a skill) Punching paper or ringing steel at extreme distance is a skill, but when hunting the closer the eventual shot the better the stalking skill.

 

[Klint Beastwood]

Not really true at all if you are a hunter, in all the game I have taken from Jack Rabbits to elk the furthest I have shot was a 120 yard off hand shot with my muzzy at a cow elk. Last antelope I killed in wide open WY was an 80 yard shot. Sure you can pull some long shots out West if you want to climb up some hillside and set on your butt all day long behind the bino's waiting for something to come out in the open but if you are wanting to get involved in the hunt and put some miles on the ground then more often then not the action is up close, personal and fast.

The problem with hunting these days and the thinking that everyone needs to be a snider is all the stupid hunting shows on TV and the internet. To get good footage they need the time to set cameras up, the way most of us old Western hunters hunt you don't have time to even get a firearm off your shoulder when it happens. We can always tell a want to be TV hunter as there hiking around with there rifle slung on there shoulder or worse yet over the pack frame with no chance of ever taking advantage of a quick opportunity.

Where do you hunt? To get to 80 yards takes hours of stalking for me...and that’s using a compound bow...a 3 to 500 yard shot is COMMON in mule deer country. (With a rifle obviously)

 

[WVRJ]

I have to agree with the observation that all internet rifles will usually shoot 1/2 MOA,and the guys who shoot them are good enough to hit small targets at long range.I have a 100 yard range with a good bench in my back yard.I usually shoot at least 1,000 rounds a year,with hunting and target rifles.The farthest shot I ever took at an animal was around 550 yards at an elk with a well tuned 300WM hunting rifle.Long range shooting is by no means easy,but with lots of practice and a reasonably accurate rifle,it can be done.I have spent many years learning my limitations and trying to improve my shooting.In the summer months,I shoot at 500+ on a weekly basis.I don't have any $5000 rifles,but the ones I have are well tuned and very capable.I have several hunters who come to my range right before deer season,and have seen some very bad rifles that they were counting on to kill a deer.For some of those guys,100 yards would be long range.It's like anything else-you get out of it what you put into it.

 

[M118LR]

The definition of "Long Range Shooting" changes relative to the position of the shooter. For example, a 300 yard X ring shot while sitting, kneeling, or prone? Now that shot while standing, perhaps that's a "Long Range Shot" ? Looking at it factually, an MOA mechanical rifle is able to hold 1.047 inches at 100 yards. That gives the shooter a wobble of almost 8 inches to maintain the 10 inch circle relative to deer sized game animals. At 550 yards the best an MOA rifle could hold would be roughly 5.76 inches, which means that shooter wobble would need to be less than the mechanical accuracy of an MOA rifle. Now Uncle Sams Misguided Children used to practice Off hand at 200 yards as a common practice, but 300 yards was practiced from the sitting, kneeling, and prone positions prior to attempting qualifications at 500 yards prone. I've meet allot of crack shots, but none that can regularly expect X-ring hit's from the off hand position which is most common to hunting at a distance of 500 yards.

If you are able to stalk game to a distance of 80 yards while using a bow, why are you unable to stalk the same game within a rifle range less than 300 yards? Now a 13+ pound extra heavy barreled Sniper Quality Precision Rifle capable of delivering Sub MOA performance from the prone position usually aided by a Bipod isn't quite the same thing as a pencil barreled ultra light sporting rifle firing from a cold bore. Prior to attempting any shot on a game animal it is only prudent to have successfully duplicated that shot repetitively from the same shooting position with the same rifle & load, even though it won't be under the same conditions.

Bottom line, I'll stick to a hard 300 yard maximum distance best condition only shot on game animals. JMHO.

 

[cdb1]

The longest shot I’ve ever taken at a deer was approximately 330 yards and actually 300 yards is about my limit(for deer and coyotes) with a good rest. Longest shot on a coyote was around 250 yards. My one elk was taken at 130 yards. The nilgai I’ve taken were under 250 yards. Elk are big enough I’d feel okay out to about 450. My closest neighbor routinely shoots deer out to 500 yards. He has exceptional shooting ability that I feel is extremely rare. Opening day dove season 2013 he limited out with 21shells. That’s exceptional to me, especially since his shotgun had been sent out for repair and hadn’t come back yet. He was using a shotgun he’d never shot before.

I have a small scope mounting business. People occasionally ask me to sight in their rifles too. I definitely charge enough to make it worth my while. I also strongly urge the customer to sight in the rifle themselves with my help. I almost never do this on my own land because I worry about liability issues but meet them at a public range that’s close.

From what I’ve seen with my customers and others at the public range there is indeed a huge disconnect between reality and the internet. I routinely read on forums where someone’s hunting rifle shoots groups you can cover with a dime. So I have to decide whether my skills are subpar or do most people lie.

I don’t own that many rifles compared to some. I have seven centerfire rifles: five bolt actions, a lever action and an AR. My most accurate rifle does shoot 1/2 groups, sometimes. Some days I just don’t shoot well and when that happens I don’t shoot 1/2 groups. It took me almost two years to get 1/2 groups too.
The rest of my rifles with the exception of my lever shoot MOA or a little less. It took me around two years to get the 30-30 to shoot 1.5 MOA and I’m pleased as punch with that.

Another thing is people are getting groups you can cover with a dime with $300.00 rifles, Axis and RAR come to mind, using factory ammunition. My least expensive bolt rifle is a Weatherby Vanguard so again I’m either doing something wrong or there are a bunch of embellishers out there.

 

[SamT1]

Yup. If you shoot 10 3 shot groups surely one will be done sized!

 

[Bayourambler]

I’ve only been shooting centerfire rifles for fun for a lil over a year now and have learned that once you have sound equipment , there is no replacement for practice !!! I’ve hunted my whole life and found with a good rest and ,most importantly not rushing, 250 - 300 yds to shoot deer is just about max for me. I’ve killed them up to 510 yds , but conditions were perfect and I was resting on sandbags. I usually don’t even think about it past 300. As far as shooting targets, my go to Rifle is Remington 700 308 tactical I bought for $250. The scope is a Burris fullfield e1 4-14, cost is $300. With this rifle I can hit pretty consistently up to 600 yds. I did some shooting last week and the end of the day while it was calm, I took 3 shots at 700 yds. (Below). Some time back I didn’t think I would be doing this with my $600 rig, but with much practice and messing with the gun and handloads I’ve come a long way! To me , shooting past 600 is a different world!!!! Everything that might be not quite right shows up BIG! Spending money will only get you so far, you gotta shoot every chance you get. I’m very fortunate , I can shoot right here behind my home at any range I want, any day I want.

 

[Muddydogs]

Where do you hunt? To get to 80 yards takes hours of stalking for me...and that’s using a compound bow...a 3 to 500 yard shot is COMMON in mule deer country. (With a rifle obviously)

Utah, Arizona, Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, Washington, Colorado. Killed one thing or another in the listed states. Hunted mule deer on the AZ strip last year and ended up with a 40 yard shot. Year before last I killed a cow and 6 point bull within a minute of each other in Utah at 80 yards. But thats the thing I'm not spotting and stocking I'm still hunting through good country covering ground and making my own luck. There has been times that I have glassed an opening and made a stalk on a spotted animal but generally I'm moving.

For me its being quick and ready to make the off hand shot, you will never catch me with my rifle slung over my shoulder unless I'm taking a leak. My rifle is in my hands or on a military type sling where the rifle is across my front. I never leave the range without taken a few off hand shots at whatever steel plate is hanging out there with whatever firearm I'm shooting.

 

[SamT1]

I prefer to lay prone on a high spot with a bipod and rear bag. Cool morning wearing my coveralls that blend in. Big thermos of coffee. Probably shoot the first thing that comes out. Deer hog coyote rabbit if i get bored. These days the phone will go to ringing for work shortly and I’ll feel bad about messing around and go to work.

It’s more fun to take a long shot for me. I don’t like blinds. I don’t shoot very good off hand and I’m a big un graceful guy so I don’t stalk very good. I had a friend who loved archery. I used some of his spots in rifle season with a pistol (SRH .480 Ruger) and took a couple deer at 40 and 100 yards. That was pretty fun too, I’m capable of a 3 moa group with the srh as long as I can sit my hand on or against something. so it’s a very capable gun, no telling what someone very good could do. I don’t believe I’ve shot it in 4 years now though.

 

[Varminterror]

The definition of "Long Range Shooting" changes relative to the position of the shooter. For example, a 300 yard X ring shot while sitting, kneeling, or prone? Now that shot while standing, perhaps that's a "Long Range Shot" ? Looking at it factually, an MOA mechanical rifle is able to hold 1.047 inches at 100 yards. That gives the shooter a wobble of almost 8 inches to maintain the 10 inch circle relative to deer sized game animals. At 550 yards the best an MOA rifle could hold would be roughly 5.76 inches, which means that shooter wobble would need to be less than the mechanical accuracy of an MOA rifle. Now Uncle Sams Misguided Children used to practice Off hand at 200 yards as a common practice, but 300 yards was practiced from the sitting, kneeling, and prone positions prior to attempting qualifications at 500 yards prone. I've meet allot of crack shots, but none that can regularly expect X-ring hit's from the off hand position which is most common to hunting at a distance of 500 yards.

If you are able to stalk game to a distance of 80 yards while using a bow, why are you unable to stalk the same game within a rifle range less than 300 yards? Now a 13+ pound extra heavy barreled Sniper Quality Precision Rifle capable of delivering Sub MOA performance from the prone position usually aided by a Bipod isn't quite the same thing as a pencil barreled ultra light sporting rifle firing from a cold bore. Prior to attempting any shot on a game animal it is only prudent to have successfully duplicated that shot repetitively from the same shooting position with the same rifle & load, even though it won't be under the same conditions.

Bottom line, I'll stick to a hard 300 yard maximum distance best condition only shot on game animals. JMHO.

This all coming from a 1958yrd USMC sniper...? Seems odd to cut your "huntable range" by ~85%, an elk's vital zone is about as big as a human torso...

 

[Klint Beastwood]

Utah, Arizona, Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, Washington, Colorado. Killed one thing or another in the listed states. Hunted mule deer on the AZ strip last year and ended up with a 40 yard shot. Year before last I killed a cow and 6 point bull within a minute of each other in Utah at 80 yards. But thats the thing I'm not spotting and stocking I'm still hunting through good country covering ground and making my own luck. There has been times that I have glassed an opening and made a stalk on a spotted animal but generally I'm moving.

For me its being quick and ready to make the off hand shot, you will never catch me with my rifle slung over my shoulder unless I'm taking a leak. My rifle is in my hands or on a military type sling where the rifle is across my front. I never leave the range without taken a few off hand shots at whatever steel plate is hanging out there with whatever firearm I'm shooting.

Guess it depends on the land. I hunt public land, I usually get about 15 miles off the road before I even get to glassing areas. So when I see shooter deer in a valley or wherever they are that year, they are usually in the roughest, dumbest areas to get in, especially in late season as the pressure goes up.

 

[Muddydogs]

I only hunts public land but realized years ago I don't have to go 15 miles back, just need to find where the animals are and like you say there in the crap which can be 1/4 mile from the road if its nasty enough that sane people won't touch it. After working in the woods for 20 years all over the West there isn't much I haven't seen and my idea of crap varies greatly from most peoples.

 

[M118LR]

Seems odd to cut your "huntable range" by ~85%, an elk's vital zone is about as big as a human torso...

Far more time is devoted to stalking during training and actual field work than most would understand. I've never meet a Roosevelt Elk armed with a projectile weapon. Remember that you have to travel to the spot of the kill to dress-out the game, and many critters can cover 300 yards quicker than me. Just because you have repetitively proven that you can do something, that doesn't mean you should! The object is to ensure that every shot equals a clean kill, and every kill equals meat in the freezer. It's easier to stalk game to a point blank range than it is to track wounded game for miles on end, and as a humane hunter you bear the responsibility to harvest any game animal you attempt a shoot at. JMHO.

PS (USN Ret.)