Long Range Rifle Brass Prep

[Walkalong]

Why FL size and not just Neck size only?

Neck sizing is not more accurate, and sooner or later will cause chambering issues.

 

[RMH]

Neck sizing is not more accurate, and sooner or later will cause chambering issues.

Thank you for all the information and wisdom.

 

[bluejay75]

How would the mandrel dies differ from running brass through a full length sizer and then running it through a Lee Collet neck size die?

 

[The Glockodile]

I have the 21st century expander. I was wondering if the mandrels are interchangeable with the Sinclair?

Mine are by PMA (blue... not red!!!), I think.

They also fit in the Sinclair dies.

 

[The Glockodile]

How would the mandrel dies differ from running brass through a full length sizer and then running it through a Lee Collet neck size die?

You need to at least do full length or neck sizing first (the first downsizes the whole case, the second just the neck - you typically remove the deprimer + neck expander button assembly in these dies if you're using an expander mandrel afterwards), then use the mandrel to expand the necks.

The Lee Collet neck sizer is a different animal - it squeezes the neck of the case against a mandrel (imagine squeezing a roll of tissue with your four fingers onto a pencil). It's a neck sizing die only, doesn't touch the body...

OOPS! MISREAD YOUR POST!

Honestly, no significant difference, save for those unsightly marks the Lee die leaves on your case neck... Difficult to damage your cases with a simple mandrel, but you can mess your cases up if your adjustments are off on a Collet Neck Sizer (crushing the shoulders).

 

[ms6852]

After fireforming 100 pieces...

Wipe with steel wool - I don't need match cases shiny. They just need to be clean so they don't scratch dies.

Decap with a universal decapper - I don't yet want to do any sizing

Trim to length - they need to be perfect, for obvious reasons

Chamfer outside and inside - to minimize bullet damage during seating and improve entry into dies

Inside neck turn - the most effective way to ensure consistent wall thickness and bullet concentricity

Deburr flash holes - arguably unnecessary, especially on drilled rather than punched cases

Uniform primer pockets - probably unnecessary, but only needs to be done once, even if just for peace of mind

Check neck concentricity - runout greater than .005 or so now indicates a problem with your tooling or your chamber

Weigh cases - how many do you need for sighters and the match? For benchrest I kept the best 15 out of the original 100

Neck size with bushing die - I always used Sinclair or Wilson dies on an arbor press, but I understand that many/most "accuracy" competitors are using standard 7/8x14 presses these days.

That's the bulk of it. Assuming the cases will only be used in one bolt action rifle, reloading consists of wiping with steel wool, checking for the "dreaded donut" (which really should not occur if you are neck sizing without a shoulder bump) de- and re-capping, neck sizing, charging, and seating.

This is what I do.^^^^^^^^

 

[AJC1]

How would the mandrel dies differ from running brass through a full length sizer and then running it through a Lee Collet neck size die?

Your sizing the neck twice. The mandrel opens up the neck to final diameter and replaced the function of the expander ball. The lee die sizes the neck from start to finish but does not give you the ability to make fine adjustments in diameter/ neck tension. In our case shooting lead my mandrel is a two step from noe in the lee universal expander die.

 

[Varminterror]

With clean, decapped brass:

1) Lube w/One Shot & FL size with Redding Type S bushing die
2) Mandrel expand with Sinclair mandrel die
3) Prime on adjustable bench primer
4) Charge in tray
5) Seat in Wilson Seating Die in arbor press
6) Pew Pew
7) Decap on universal decapper
8) Clean
9) Repeat

Anneal if so desired, otherwise keep attention on sorting by firing and your neck tension.

 

[AJC1]

With clean, decapped brass:

1) Lube w/One Shot & FL size with Redding Type S bushing die
2) Mandrel expand with Sinclair mandrel die
3) Prime on adjustable bench primer
4) Charge in tray
5) Seat in Wilson Seating Die in arbor press
6) Pew Pew
7) Decap on universal decapper
8) Clean
9) Repeat

Anneal if so desired, otherwise keep attention on sorting by firing and your neck tension.

The only thing I change is 1 by using a forester national match die with redding sizing wax.
Process for most of us is identical plus or minus some preferences. As long as it gives solid results to each their own.

 

[BJung]

No one has mentioned expanding the neck with a mandrel and separating the brass by concentricity of the wall thickness. My old notes taken from some online source says wall thickness variation should be .000-.001" for target; .001"-.002" range; and .002-.004" for hunting. I have a friend who hunted in Montana and he said he use to turn his cartridges and mark his bullet's concentricity and chamber it the same way. How many spin their cases 1/3 turn as they seat their bullets? I've read that this makes a difference but have not compared a straight bullet insertion vs. a partial insertion with turns yet. I just know my groups are good.

 

[murf]

sorting by firing

would you explain this for us?

murf

 

[Varminterror]

would you explain this for us?

murf

1x fired versus 10x fired.

Annealing lets us reset our neck hardness to a “ground state.” If we’re not annealing, we have progressively harder and harder brass which springs back more in sizing, varying neck tension and varying seating pressure from one firing to the next. I’ve been able to get brass to 6-8 firings with single digit SD’s and sub-1/2moa groups without annealing, but I keep them sorted by number of firings, and swap my neck bushing as needed to sustain my neck tension.

In other words, if I dropped a bunch of virgin brass in with my 8x fired brass, never annealed, you can bet my velocity spread over the entire batch would spread considerably, as would my groups. But if I decide I’m not going to anneal, it’s just a matter of keeping brass separated by number of firings and adapting with the changing neck hardness.

 

[Varminterror]

No one has mentioned expanding the neck with a mandrel and separating the brass by concentricity of the wall thickness. My old notes taken from some online source says wall thickness variation should be .000-.001" for target; .001"-.002" range; and .002-.004" for hunting.

Given moderate to high quality brass, this is type of sorting is wasted energy.

Given low quality brass, this type of sorting remains wasted effort: 1) buy better brass, 2) neck turn to uniform neck thickness, 3) don’t sort brass because you really don’t care enough to get the accuracy you want if you’re unwilling to do option 1 or 2.... Sorting brass increases your cost of brass, so you might as well have just bought better brass in the first place, OR take the time to uniform your brass - it’s a one and done job.

I have a friend who hunted in Montana and he said he use to turn his cartridges and mark his bullet's concentricity and chamber it the same way. How many spin their cases 1/3 turn as they seat their bullets? I've read that this makes a difference but have not compared a straight bullet insertion vs. a partial insertion with turns yet.

Wasted energy.

If turning your brass during sizing or turning your ammo during seating did anything at all, dimensionally, then it would be indicative that your dies are eccentric. Logically, pushing an eccentricity from one side to the other does not promote concentricity, it simply moves the wobble from one side to the other. Absolute garbage practice. If your gear creates eccentric brass or ammo, buy better gear which isn’t out of spec. This old wive’s tale has been passed on for far too long, and has been functionally, logically, and objectively disproven time and time again.

 

[murf]

gotcha. i thought you may might be talking about segregating the most accurate cases from the bunch to tighten up the groups.

thx,

murf

 

[AJC1]

No one has mentioned expanding the neck with a mandrel and separating the brass by concentricity of the wall thickness. My old notes taken from some online source says wall thickness variation should be .000-.001" for target; .001"-.002" range; and .002-.004" for hunting. I have a friend who hunted in Montana and he said he use to turn his cartridges and mark his bullet's concentricity and chamber it the same way. How many spin their cases 1/3 turn as they seat their bullets? I've read that this makes a difference but have not compared a straight bullet insertion vs. a partial insertion with turns yet. I just know my groups are good.

I've read many articles and tests that show that run out less than point zero zero three seems to have little to no impact on group accuracy. Everyone is the governor of their own standards

 

[The Glockodile]

And on the flipside, there are some barrels which will give you awesome results with everything.

 

[bluejay75]

And on the flipside, there are some barrels which will give you awesome results with everything.

I need a couple of those! All the barrels I shoot are factory. Never saw a need for a custom. But then again all of my guns are for hunting, self defense.

 

[The Glockodile]

But then again all of my guns are for hunting, self defense.

Tactically recreational alphamalesheepdoggie paperpuncherwarrior, myself

 

[Varminterror]

gotcha. i thought you may might be talking about segregating the most accurate cases from the bunch to tighten up the groups.

thx,

murf

Have done that before, even after uniforming necks, flash holes, primer pockets, water capacity sorting, trimming meplats and repointing bullets, weight sorting bullets and primers.... and THEN I’d sort brass by individual cases which never threw bullets out of the group...

And THEN I decided benchrest isn’t for me, so now I either just anneal or sort by number of firings, and I’m happier. And frankly, I’m pretty sure I shoot groups just as small as I ever have before.

 

[The Glockodile]

trimming meplats and repointing bullets,...

You bought a bullet pointer?

Which one?

Whidden's?

 

[bluejay75]

To the OP. My groups, SDs and ESs went down drastically by uniforming flash holes, tightening the headspace in my rifles, cleaning necks of my cases with a bronze brush, experimenting with different fl size dies. Two of the steps can be done on a case prep center without too much additional time added. If you got a clean trim on the cases I skip the outside chamfer. Worked with Lapua, FC and LC brass. I think FC has worked best for me. The same reason you blow primer pockets in FC so fast makes it great for accuracy loads. The brass is soft. By the time it’s work hardened to degrade accuracy it’s time to throw it out. I have started annealing and I can’t tell the difference in my loads yet. At present my most accurate and consistent load is in FC brass that has not been annealed.

 

[Varminterror]

You bought a bullet pointer?

Which one?

Whidden's?

Yes, I have a Whidden bullet pointer, bought from another shooter around 12-15yrs ago.

 

[lordpaxman]

I appreciate all the information in this thread. I’m still way down on the learning curve for PRS but hope this will move me up a bit. Thank you.

 

[Varminterror]

I appreciate all the information in this thread. I’m still way down on the learning curve for PRS but hope this will move me up a bit. Thank you.

I’ll tell you - for PRS shooting, don’t overthink it. Don’t bother with brass prep, don’t weight sort anything. We don’t shoot groups. Find a local to help you work through load development if you can, otherwise follow a very simple and relatively inexpensive loading process listed below, load 150 of them, find a local one day match, call the MD to get set up with the right squad mom, and go shoot the match. You’ll learn more from being guided through that match in half a day than you will by trying to learn on your own for a year.

With clean matching headstamp brass & Berger Hybrids in 6 or 6.5mm:

1) full length resize to ~2 thou bump with Redding Type S bushing die, no expander ball
2) mandrel expand with Sinclair mandrel die
3) prime
4) charge
5) seat in wilson die
6) Mark your extractor groove with a sharpie in a unique color

Follow the Satterlee velocity curve method to determine your charge weight, and use the Bolt lift method to find your lands and seat the Hybrids anywhere between 5 thou and 60 thou off of the lands. In a factory rifle, free floated and bedded, I’d bet on ~3/4moa groups, if not smaller, and single digit to low teen SD’s, which is good enough to win any PRS match in the country.

 

[RMH]

With clean matching headstamp brass & Berger Hybrids in 6 or 6.5mm:

What process do you use to clean your brass? I read somewhere not to wet tumble with pins because the pins will damage the case neck. It sounded like a bunch crap to me but I thought I would ask.