Long shots with my Eotech 557.AR223 (MAKO a good route?)

[speaksoftly]

So I've got the MP15T outfitted with the Eotech 557 and love it. However, it's not the best for long range shooting and I'd like to remedy that. From what I can see, the best route to take is a 4X magnifier. Eotech makes these but I don't have a firstborn child they're asking for payment. I'm wondering if any of you know of a magnifier that's on par with Eotech quality but a bit less pricey. If not then I'll probably just save for the Eotech as I'm NOT willing to sacrifice quality. Thanks for any info.

-Marcos

P.S. Just to get this out of the way. I'm not going with another optic. I like my Eotech and don't want an ACOG or other scope.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I am not sure what you mean that it isn't the best for long range shooting. With a 1 MOA center dot, you have one of the smallest aiming points of an illuminated reticle that you can find. You should be able to hit heads on targets out to 500 yards with it if that is where you have it zero'd.

You can add a 4x magnifier and everything will be 4 times bigger. Your target will be 4 times bigger as viewed through the secondary glass of the 556, but then so too will be the 1 MOA dot inside of it which will be 4 MOA with the magnifier.

The more glass you have to view through that isn't sealed, the more quality you are doing to sacrifice. Instead of two external surfaces with particles, you will have 4. The dust on the 556 will be magnified 4 times as well when viewed through the magnifier.

So what sort of long range shooting are you talking about? 500 yards? 800? 1000?

 

[speaksoftly]

I'd like to improve at the 600-700 yard range. I'm thinking that a magnifier will help me in that area. And, of course, it's just help because the gear isn't the limiting factor on my long range accuracy (if you know what I mean haha).

 

[CoRoMo]

Isn't this your reticle?

 

[taliv]

the larue po-boy magnifier is probably what you're looking for. you can probably find them in the sale forums here or at arfcom or m4c (or i have one on consignment in my local gun shop)

 

[speaksoftly]

Yes that is my reticle and the po-boy looks interesting. Can anyone vouch for quality?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Wow, I didn't realize they have 4 dots now. That is very nice.

 

[speaksoftly]

Wow, I didn't realize they have 4 dots now. That is very nice.

As I said, I'm in love with the Eotech. I'd like to see the ACOG that goes from 4X to 1X with the push of a button. ;-)

 

[Mags]

Also look at the Mako magnifer, they make 3,5, and 7x models.

 

[speaksoftly]

Also look at the Mako magnifer, they make 3,5, and 7x models.

I've looked very hard at those lately. However, I've heard some not so great reviews about them. Granted, reviews are normally biased before they're even written but I'd LOVE to hear someone's opinion from THR who's owned and used one.

 

[Mags]

I had a RRA LAR8 in 308 with the Mako 3x mounted. It worked well, didn't magnify the recticle and didn't blow apart after hundreds of rounds of 308. I sold the magnifier separately after I got rid of the rifle. I think it is too much on an AR15 in my opinion, just too much stuuf on the top rail between BUIS, Aimpoint, and magnifier. I know you are against but I dig just one optic perhaps the ACOG.

 

[Destructo6]

I'd like to see the ACOG that goes from 4X to 1X with the push of a button.

No such animal, but Elcan's Specter DR does it with the flip of a switch. Little spendy, though.

Looks like the 3x versions can be had for about $475. I have one of these on a LaRue flip to side mount behind an XPS and/or 552. It's a really nice setup, both quick and precise shooting (better target ID).

I don't know about the Mako knock offs. I kinda subscribe to the "buy quality, buy once" school of thought.

 

[speaksoftly]

I don't know about the Mako knock offs. I kinda subscribe to the "buy quality, buy once" school of thought.

I'm the same way however, $500+ for a magnifier seems a bit steep IMHO.

 

[kwelz]

not really.. Quality glass cost money. You could argue that since you can get knockoff Aimpoints and Eotechs for ~$100 that the real thing should cost that also. But we all know that isn't the case.

 

[powerline]

Burris makes one, too. Not sure of the quality, I've only seen it in a glass case. It was priced around $200, iirc.

 

[benEzra]

You can add a 4x magnifier and everything will be 4 times bigger. Your target will be 4 times bigger as viewed through the secondary glass of the 556, but then so too will be the 1 MOA dot inside of it which will be 4 MOA with the magnifier.

This is true of most optics, but is not true of the Eotech. This is the case because the Eotech's center dot is actually diffraction limited by the human eye; it is considerably smaller than 1 MOA and only appears ~1 MOA because the human eye is physically incapable of displaying the dot at its actual, much-smaller size (any point light source will always appear to bloom to the eye's minimum resolution limit). If you throw a 4x magnifier in front of it, the background is magnified 4X, but the dot is still diffraction-limited and thus still appears ~1 MOA. So with the Eotech, you have the unusual situation of being able to magnify the view without magnifying the dot.

FWIW, I've shot at 200 yards with an Eotech, and by far the biggest hindrance to shooting 2" groups at that range isn't the dot size, it's inability to see the target clearly enough to consistently hold on it. At 500, your biggest issue, again, won't be dot size, but rather inability to clearly see what you're shooting at. From the standpoint of the human eye, an 18" target at 500 yards is less than four "pixels" wide (only 3.6 times the width of the human resolution limit), and a magnified optic helps greatly with that.

 

[Still 2 Many Choices!?]

benEzra beat me to it(and explained it in a way I couldn't have to boot)!

The 1moa dot still appears 1moa through the magnifier. I bough an airsoft knock off to play with on my AR and it was awesome; right up to the point the flip-to-side mount was eaten by my idea of trying it on the FAL!The dot. Size staying 1moa makes precision shots at anything under 100 yds almost seem like cheating! I still have the knock off, but no mount for it. I also want to upgrade my Eotech from the older 552, and have too many things I'm saving for(convert Saiga12, make Fal side folder, compensated Eotech), so the 4x magnifier will have to come down in price, or is a long ways off for me !

Still 2 Many Choices!?

 

[TheMakoGroup]

Mako's Magnifiers

I was browsing through different forums, when I stumbled upon this discussion that mentioned our magnifiers. When I saw some of the comments/ reviews of our magnifiers, I couldn't help but to post some information on our magnifiers to help shed some light on the improvements that have been made over time.

While admittedly, the first generation of our magnifiers had some reliability issues. We replace all defective magnifiers free of charge, as we do with any other product of ours that has failed its user.

Currently, we are on our third generation of magnifiers. The first generation, as many know, had some issues with reliability. Many people claimed that “something has shaken loose”. Under investigation, we discovered that the internal prism would rattle loose when subjected to heavy vibration.

The second generation magnifiers, while fixed of this previous design flaw, received a few complaints that the magnification was less than stated on the magnifier. We also received a few returns on magnifiers that had shown signs of fog/ water penetration into the internal lenses.

Again, we went back and redesigned our magnifiers to remedy the above concerns as well as to exceed performance expectations. The steps we took we as follows; within the lenses, there is a +/- .5x magnification variable during production. That means that 3x magnifier might come in as high as 3.5x or as low as 2.5x (with the vast majority falling between 2.8x and 3.2x), and the 5x could be from 5.5x to 4.5x etc... Now, all of our magnifiers are designed to be +.5x higher. Our 5x magnifier is in reality a 5.5x magnifier with extreme variances at a true 5x up to 6x (with the vast majority between 5.3x to 5.7x).

The concern of Waterproofing/ Fogproofing was addressed by improving the seals around the lenses and by filling the tube with nitrogen. The end result is a magnifier whose internal optics will NOT rattle loose, whose optics are of equal or better magnification than specified, and will NOT fog up or fill with water.

For identification purposes, the new magnifiers contain a colored ring around the objective bell that has MAKO and the magnifier's magnification level written on it. http://www.makosecurity.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/MD3XMGNF_full.jpg

 

[wally]

Quality glass cost money. You could argue that since you can get knockoff Aimpoints and Eotechs for ~$100

I'm going to shoot it, not photograph it, if the magnification is usable (no significant distortion and bright) its good enough. But in general I prefer a 1-4x zoom like the Millet DMS scope that is true 1X and can be used like a red dot with both eyes open if you put it at 1X with the illuminated dot on. But you lose the BUIS option unless you go with a quick detach mount or one of the 45-degree angled BUIS setups you see at three gun matches.

The Sightmark $80 Aimpoint knock-off is a very serviceable red dot if you are not going to Iraq with it. Gives near perfect co-witness (I adjusted the dot to the irons and was only a few click off). They are free enough from distortion and parallax that either co-witness or bottom third works well, but the mount it comes with is setup for co-witness on the AR.

The EOtech knock-offs ain't that cheap ($150-190 around here) and its obvious they are crap if you ever look through one -- lots of distortion and parallax -- they are just a very poor quality reflex sight in a EOTech-like housing, truly a waste of time and money.

 

[kwelz]

Not sure I understand your argument. I don't care what something looks like. I care how it performs. And cheap stuff tends to perform badly.

 

[wally]

Not sure I understand your argument

I don't really have an argument, but demanding top of the line photographic quality optics in a riflescope greatly pushes up the cost for little practical benefit. Target identification should be done with binoculars, not by pointing your rifle at who knows what.


Some cheap stuff that has served me very well:

$80 Sightmark Aimpoint knock-off, battery life is pathetic compared to the real deal, but you can sure buy a lot of batteries and ammo for the price difference.

$140 Votex Strikefire red dot, as above, much better battery life from using a 3V lithium and adds a green dot option.

$230 Millet DMS 1-4X scope, only real negative is its bigger than most of its competition.

I see a fair number of the Mako magnifiers behind EOtechs at our club and their users generally seem happy with them, but I think an EOTech and a magnifier ends up being a pretty poor scope when you compare the total cost to what even half that sum will buy you in a scope.

 

[jmorris]

I'm the same way however, $500+ for a magnifier seems a bit steep IMHO.

I agree, it seems silly spending $1000 to try and have a red dot sight take on the role of a decent/so so long range optic.

 

[Monkeyleg]

If you're looking for a low-priced magnifier that still has decent quality, you might want to look at the Sightmarks. While they're not EOTech quality, they're not bad. I don't know how they stack up against Mako, because I've never used a Mako.

The Sightmark is like a Simmons scope compared to a Leupold, which is the level of quality that the EOTech magnifier is. Sightmark makes 3X, 4X and 7X magnifiers.

The only reason I know about the Sightmark magnifiers is that my distributor was having a special on them in conjunction with EOTech sights this month, and I'm giving the magnifiers free with the purchase of the EOTech sights. So I took advantage and got one myself.

I couldn't afford to pay $527 for a G23FTS magnifier either, so the free one and a hundred + for a flip to side mount is more in line with my budget.

 

[TheMakoGroup]

The Sightmark magnifiers are our Gen II and Gen I magnifiers that we didn't use since we upgraded to our Gen III. We gave the factory permission to sell them to other companies. Notice they are exactly the same design as our magnifiers (except without the Gen III ring). They are fine for range use. Wont be as powerful as the Gen III or as waterproof but if its the right price....