Lou McGopher
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Will do!
Looking for affordable first AR
- Thread starter Lou McGopher
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ugaarguy
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That "little stamp" is the forge mark. All it tells you is who did the initial forging of the stripped upper. It doesn't tell you who did the final machining, who assembled the complete upper, what parts they used - it basically tells you nothing. If think all parts are equal, well, keep thinking that
. With proper ammo selection .223 / 5.56 has less concern of over penetration than handgun rounds, and shotgun rounds. I'll not re-write what's already been discussed. The Rifle Forum Reading Library, that sticky at the top of this forum that everyone ignores contain good info. Including this thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=210739 .
HOLY DIVER
Member
i keep a PMAG loaded with hornady v-max for personal deffense 60gr
*NOVA*
Member
"I can't make a recommendation if the optic must be included at the $750 hard budget. I can suggest, based on reviews from other members here whom also have known backgrounds, that the OP look at the Vortex StrikeFire for $150."
I have the Vortex Strikefire mounted on my Del-Ton. Good lil red dot with red or green dot options and adjustable intensity. Only other thing I added was a BUIS, so total cost for me after figuring in shipping and FFL transfer fee was about $1,050.00. Very happy with Del-Ton!
I have the Vortex Strikefire mounted on my Del-Ton. Good lil red dot with red or green dot options and adjustable intensity. Only other thing I added was a BUIS, so total cost for me after figuring in shipping and FFL transfer fee was about $1,050.00. Very happy with Del-Ton!
Strykervet
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I'm assuming you can't build your own (or at least shouldn't, not yet). I'm a former SDM instructor, I know a LOT about these rifles.
In that case, get a reliable maker. Stay away from gas pistons, only a couple of makers have them ironed out (direct impingement is fine). The more mil-spec the better. Stay away from too much tacticool junk, for instance, just get the regular pinned on front sight tower. They work better and don't fall off. If you get a rail, get a free floating one unless you get a military KAC for a steal. Stay away from bolt on junk. If there is a version that pins on, get that instead. Did I say mil-spec? Oh yeah, get mil-spec parts. Particularly the small parts, the buttstock, lower parts, and upper parts.
The army changed the mags. Most people on here haven't figured it out yet, still preferring the green follower mags to the tan ones, but they'll get it soon enough. Buy the GI mags with tan followers, if you can't find them, get a few green ones and wait until the contract is fulfilled. Then get the tan follower mags. They work better.
As far as a manufactured rifle, I'd stay away from Oly. They are right down the street, I can be there in half and hour or so. I go there for parts from time to time, they do have some good parts. Their receivers are fine. But their trigger group is TRASH! Cast or whatever, the engagement surfaces are parkerized, this means you can't work in or polish a good engagement surface and get a nice trigger.
DPMS makes a good trigger. I hear mixed reviews about their whole rifles, but I think they are okay. Not tops, but good.
Colt will be the best all around you can go with for the money. A little more than what you wanted to spend, but you'll be glad you did. Just get the right model, the military ones. Others here will knock this advice, but trust me, I used Colt's in the army and those things performed better overall than any other AR I've ever seen, even the expensive ones.
Bushmaster is supposed to be a close second to Colt. Lots of folks say Bushmaster is the closest thing a civilian can get to a mil spec rifle from a commercial company.
Stag, Model 1, etc. From what I can tell, their quality has come leaps and bounds. In the 90's, there were a handful of AR makers, and then there were a handful of junk makers. These guys used to be the junk makers. I guess they turned a leaf. Stag looks pretty good now.
Frankenrifle. That is what I go with. I make my own of course. But I know what I am doing and what to look for. Lots of people think they do, so beware, don't let joe-blow build you your rifle.
My advice? Find a slightly used Bushmaster or similar rifle. I highly recommend getting one with a carry handle on it and standard front sights. You should get proficient with those first, then worry about optics. When selecting a rifle, pull the trigger slowly. If it creeps and feels grainy and very stiff, then you might want to stay away from this one. Compare a DPMS trigger to an Oly for an idea. Also, look at the bolt carrier. Look for machine marks. Is it smooth or does it have rough marks where it looks like it was carved with a knife? The attention to detail they apply there could be applied to other areas of the weapon, for good or worse.
Problem with AR's today? Everybody makes one. Some are good, some are trash, some are trash with good internals and some are good rifles with trash internals. Buyer beware. Get a very knowledgeable friend to go with you, or stick with Colt or Bushmaster.
In that case, get a reliable maker. Stay away from gas pistons, only a couple of makers have them ironed out (direct impingement is fine). The more mil-spec the better. Stay away from too much tacticool junk, for instance, just get the regular pinned on front sight tower. They work better and don't fall off. If you get a rail, get a free floating one unless you get a military KAC for a steal. Stay away from bolt on junk. If there is a version that pins on, get that instead. Did I say mil-spec? Oh yeah, get mil-spec parts. Particularly the small parts, the buttstock, lower parts, and upper parts.
The army changed the mags. Most people on here haven't figured it out yet, still preferring the green follower mags to the tan ones, but they'll get it soon enough. Buy the GI mags with tan followers, if you can't find them, get a few green ones and wait until the contract is fulfilled. Then get the tan follower mags. They work better.
As far as a manufactured rifle, I'd stay away from Oly. They are right down the street, I can be there in half and hour or so. I go there for parts from time to time, they do have some good parts. Their receivers are fine. But their trigger group is TRASH! Cast or whatever, the engagement surfaces are parkerized, this means you can't work in or polish a good engagement surface and get a nice trigger.
DPMS makes a good trigger. I hear mixed reviews about their whole rifles, but I think they are okay. Not tops, but good.
Colt will be the best all around you can go with for the money. A little more than what you wanted to spend, but you'll be glad you did. Just get the right model, the military ones. Others here will knock this advice, but trust me, I used Colt's in the army and those things performed better overall than any other AR I've ever seen, even the expensive ones.
Bushmaster is supposed to be a close second to Colt. Lots of folks say Bushmaster is the closest thing a civilian can get to a mil spec rifle from a commercial company.
Stag, Model 1, etc. From what I can tell, their quality has come leaps and bounds. In the 90's, there were a handful of AR makers, and then there were a handful of junk makers. These guys used to be the junk makers. I guess they turned a leaf. Stag looks pretty good now.
Frankenrifle. That is what I go with. I make my own of course. But I know what I am doing and what to look for. Lots of people think they do, so beware, don't let joe-blow build you your rifle.
My advice? Find a slightly used Bushmaster or similar rifle. I highly recommend getting one with a carry handle on it and standard front sights. You should get proficient with those first, then worry about optics. When selecting a rifle, pull the trigger slowly. If it creeps and feels grainy and very stiff, then you might want to stay away from this one. Compare a DPMS trigger to an Oly for an idea. Also, look at the bolt carrier. Look for machine marks. Is it smooth or does it have rough marks where it looks like it was carved with a knife? The attention to detail they apply there could be applied to other areas of the weapon, for good or worse.
Problem with AR's today? Everybody makes one. Some are good, some are trash, some are trash with good internals and some are good rifles with trash internals. Buyer beware. Get a very knowledgeable friend to go with you, or stick with Colt or Bushmaster.
kwelz
Member
Did we go back to 1994? Bushmaster is no where close to Colt quality and not even to be considered in the closest you can get to mil spec in a civilian rifle. BCM, DD, Noveske all meet or beat the TDP. Bushmaster can't even come close to meeting it. Especially now that Cerberus is in charge.
As well as the more affordable offerings from Spikes...
kwelz
Member
True. I dislike Spikes for many reasons but would take one over a BM any day.
Lou McGopher
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- 507
Strykervet said:
Only because I don't yet know how to judge one manufacturer's parts against those from another manufacturer.
Strykervet said:
It has crossed my mind a couple times to ditch the optics (and the AR) for now and buy a 556, but I have been hearing mixed reports on Sig's QC for this rifle. And piston ARs sound too iffy, and too far above my rifle budget.
Thanks for the advice on the trigger and mags.
Heck
Member
Right now I would check out one of those cold hammer forged barreled uppers from Palmetto State Armory for $499. Word from Palmetto State is this is an FN barrel. Add their Classic complete lower for $239 and you are about as far left on the chart as you can get in your price range.
Lou McGopher
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FN eh?
forestdavegump
Member
Well said.I always seem to spend more when building and AR cause I want certain things and the cheap ones don't offer me what I need
. FWIWI'll have to second the Palmetto State Armory suggestions. I purchased a stripped lower and lower build kit, and the quality was second to none. I've handed a few of their uppers and BCGs in their store in Columbia, SC, and evreything looks to be well finished and of high quality (proper staking, MPI testing, etc.). The word is that most of their parts suppliers are the same folks who supply to FN Manufacturing (also local to Columbia, SC) who build the current contract of M16s and M249s.
Spikes is also a proven choice for high-quality and reasonably-priced ARs (both full guns and upper halves). You just have to be willing to wait a while for one. I have a Spikes upper half on my M4gery that has been 100% reliable.
Spikes is also a proven choice for high-quality and reasonably-priced ARs (both full guns and upper halves). You just have to be willing to wait a while for one. I have a Spikes upper half on my M4gery that has been 100% reliable.
Lou McGopher
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- Mar 18, 2009
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- 507
Well, I still haven't bought it yet, but I'm about to.
I'm still liking the S&W Sport.
I like the 5R rifling, and melonite barrel, and the 1/8 twist rate sounds like it would suit me better than 1/7.
But I've also been checking out a couple mid-length kits from PSA and Del-Ton, and I might be leaning toward one of these.
Mid-length sounds the way to go for a 16" barrel, and both do have m4 feed ramps.
[noparse]
The one I am looking at from PSA (http://palmettostatearmory.com/2276.php) has a 1/8 stainless barrel and a 223 wylde chamber. I want a higher level of corrosion resistance, so basic chromoly is out. The stainless isn't going to be as hard as chrome lined or melonite, but I don't think that's gonna become an issue for me with the way I plan on shooting. PSA has some with chrome-lined barrels, but they're all 1/7 twist, and I will probably not shoot the heaviest bullets near as often as I will the lighter or middle weights. I'm assuming the wylde will suit my needs as well as a 5.56 chamber. People generally don't seem to report problems shooting Silver Bear out of it.
The one from Del-Ton has a 1/9 chrome lined barrel and 5.56 chamber. (http://www.del-ton.com/Rifle_Kit_p/rkt104.htm) I'm really not too concerned about the difference in accuracy between the stainless and chrome lined barrels (though it's too bad melonite isn't an option on either), so if 1/9 is a good all-around twist rate, I think I'd choose the Del-Ton kit over the PSA.
[/noparse]
Prices for each kit are the same.
I just missed out on PSA's $50 stripped lower, but $80 still isn't a bad price, assuming it's a quality product. If I could get a used lower for less in a FTF sale, that'd be fine, too.
Haven't bought a gun in a while... getting a bit antsy! Need to decide.
I'm still liking the S&W Sport.
I like the 5R rifling, and melonite barrel, and the 1/8 twist rate sounds like it would suit me better than 1/7.
But I've also been checking out a couple mid-length kits from PSA and Del-Ton, and I might be leaning toward one of these.
Mid-length sounds the way to go for a 16" barrel, and both do have m4 feed ramps.
[noparse]
The one I am looking at from PSA (http://palmettostatearmory.com/2276.php) has a 1/8 stainless barrel and a 223 wylde chamber. I want a higher level of corrosion resistance, so basic chromoly is out. The stainless isn't going to be as hard as chrome lined or melonite, but I don't think that's gonna become an issue for me with the way I plan on shooting. PSA has some with chrome-lined barrels, but they're all 1/7 twist, and I will probably not shoot the heaviest bullets near as often as I will the lighter or middle weights. I'm assuming the wylde will suit my needs as well as a 5.56 chamber. People generally don't seem to report problems shooting Silver Bear out of it.
The one from Del-Ton has a 1/9 chrome lined barrel and 5.56 chamber. (http://www.del-ton.com/Rifle_Kit_p/rkt104.htm) I'm really not too concerned about the difference in accuracy between the stainless and chrome lined barrels (though it's too bad melonite isn't an option on either), so if 1/9 is a good all-around twist rate, I think I'd choose the Del-Ton kit over the PSA.
[/noparse]
Prices for each kit are the same.
I just missed out on PSA's $50 stripped lower, but $80 still isn't a bad price, assuming it's a quality product. If I could get a used lower for less in a FTF sale, that'd be fine, too.
Haven't bought a gun in a while... getting a bit antsy! Need to decide.
woad_yurt
Member
The FFL I use for shipping is really into the tactical stuff. He works out of his house and he's very AR savvy. Lots of the soldiers here at Ft. Campbell go to him. He buys, sells and makes 'em. He's a true stand up guy, prompt, polite and very business-like. If you PM me, I could introduce you. He can whip up something exactly as you'd like it.
Note: I have no vested interest in any of his business nor am I an AR junkie. I just suggested him because he's good at what he does, is honest, and his prices are very reasonable.
Note: I have no vested interest in any of his business nor am I an AR junkie. I just suggested him because he's good at what he does, is honest, and his prices are very reasonable.
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