Looking for help

[mykeal]

The picture was taken at night with a flash camera, and it is a time exposure. It is not a chain fire event, it's a typical black powder revolver being fired in the dark; it only serves to show the hot gas cloud enveloping the cylinder - front and back.

The hammer was caught in the cocked position by the flash. The image then shows the time exposure of the gas burning; note the muzzle position moving up in recoil. The hammer is not rebounding off the cap; you can see it in the full down position faintly illuminated by the hot gas if you look very closely at the back of the cylinder.

You can also see that the back of the cylinder, as well as the front, is completely enveloped by the hot gas. The nipple chambers in the off battery positions are illuminated by the gas. That gas will find it's way through any open path to the powder in any chamber.

 

[TheRodDoc]

Ok. That makes sense about the flash catching the hammer before it hit the cap. But I still think there is to much gas preasure getting past the nipple. The hammer should seal it off better then that.
Did the spent cap blow open or off on that shot?

And just for curiosity, how do you take pictures of guns fireing?
I have seen quite a few day time shots on this site too. how do you trip the camera at just the right time the shooter pulls the triger?

 

[Fingers McGee]

The only chain fire I've ever had was from a missing cap on a charged chamber. A fellow CAS shooter was having a problem with chainfires at a CAS match - 3 of them on three stages. He was using cpas that were too big for the nipples and was having to squeeze them so they'd stay on. Changing to a tighter fitting cap stopped the chainfires.

With that said, I've been around other shooters that have had chainfires that there was no definitive reason why it occured.

Here is another picture of an 1860 Army firing in time lapse. You can see the fireball around the back of the cylinder, as well as from the barrel/cylinder gap.


IMNSHO, in order to prevent chainfires, your best insurance is a tight fitting ball and tight fitting cap.

FM

 

[arcticap]

All of the advice and warnings about the role of loose fitting caps in contributing to chain fires will never be heeded by some folks.
Maybe that's because there are so many exceptions to having experienced one that those folks think that they're somehow immune to the real possibility.
But generations of cap & ball shooters have been made aware of it for a very good reason. To put it simply it's because it is the truth.
Hopefully people personally evolve enough over time to comprehend the phenomenon before it's too late and it affects them adversely.
It's just like back when we were all kids growing up and most all of our moms used to say, "If you play with matches & fire then you're going to get burned!"
Just because some folks don't want to listen to their mom's sound advice doesn't mean that they're certain to get burned, but they still ought to heed the warning if they want to be less likely to get burned by a chain fire.
When it comes to chain fires, safety comes first and revisionism isn't an option.

 

[Bluehawk]

RodDoc
Taking a pic like the one shown at night is very simple as long as your camera is capable of manually keeping it's shutter open by useing the "bulb" feature or time exposure...and you need a sturdy tripod, a cable release and flash unit. (cable release is optional but it's best to use one)
Once on the tripod and you have set the proper exposure for the flash according to the distance the subject is away from the flash unit, you trip the shutter...the flash unit will fire but the shutter will not close and while the gun is fireing you keep the shutter open until the fireing sequence is over with. Because the light from the gun fireing will be very bright you should choose a lens aperature such as f8...f11...f16 or so and have your flash unit set to be compatible with that making sure the subject is within range of that. Useing a small lens opening will also give you more depth of field and keep everything sharp as long as you focused properly.
It would be a good idea to take several pictures while bracketing the lens opening...meaning take a pic at f8...then one at f11...and so on but leaving the flash setting where it was originally. That way you have a better chance of having a correct exposure of at least one picture.
This of course applies to film cameras...digital cameras would be similar but have their differences.
The pictures shown in the book were most likely taken with a high speed camera capable of taking hundreds to thousands of frames per second....such as a slow motion camera.

 

[Bluehawk]

Mykeal
What you are describing as gas is simply the glow from the sparks and flame, illuminating the smoke...the gaseous product from black powder is basically invisible.

 

[mykeal]

Like arcticap said.

 

[madcratebuilder]

Chain fires from the nipples have been discussed by Sam Colt among others, it's been a problems since the first cap and ball revolvers. Manhattan Fire Arms held a patient on a devise to reduce chain fires from the nipples. There are several historical documents published on the net that discuss this.

 

[StrawHat]

madcratebuilder

Chain fires from the nipples have been discussed by Sam Colt among others,

MCB,

Sam Colt was convinced chain firing was caused at the rear of the cylinder, not the front. His "solution was tight fitting caps. I read that one of the demonstrations he put on had him load a C&B cylinder, powder, round ball, and cap but no grease or wads. He would then submerge the cylinder in a bucket of water for 5 minutes or more, depending on the length of his sales talk, retrieve the cylinder, install it on the frame and fire off the six shots. To me, that demonstrates what a tight fitting cap and oversized ball will accomplish.

 

[Bluehawk]

Chain fires from the nipples have been discussed by Sam Colt among others........... There are several historical documents published on the net that discuss this.

Kindly show links to these.

Mykeal...I agree with Artic also in that proper fitting caps should be used...I just have serious doubts about ignitions from the rear when firing a properly loaded revolver that is in good repair. I didn't say it can't happen...I mentioned anything can happen in one post. One would think, after all these years though, there would be a modern scientific report somewhere, supporting or disproving, rear ignition chain fires. To date, I have not come across one.
I have an extensive library of the greatest pyrotechnic minds in history including Weingart, Lancaster, Shimizu, and many technical reports and treaties I refer to when developing pyrotechnic experiments and products and have never seen anything that supports this theory unless the proper procedures/precautions haven't been taken.

 

[Gatofeo]

I experienced a multiple ignition three times back in the 1970s.
It was with a cheap, brass-framed .44 in 1851 Navy pattern. Type and caliber don't matter, but I mention it so someone doesn't ask.

My load at that time was with DuPont FFFG powder, .451 ball, Remington No. 11 cap and Crisco over the ball.
The third incident ruined the revolver. I gave it to a gunsmith for parts.

Later, I began using oversized balls, greased felt wads and pinched the caps into an elliptical shape so they clung to the nipple better.
Since adopting these practices in the early 1980s, I've never experienced another multiple ignition. Perhaps it was the cheaply made revolver I started with, or perhaps my use of larger balls, greased felt wad and pinched caps eliminated the problem.
I can't say.

But I've never been one to believe that the wrong chamber gets ignited from the front. I believe it starts at the back, from a cap loosened or knocked off from recoil.
I believe that loose or ill-fitting caps are the problem.

As for your first purchase, buy a steel frame. In my experience, brass-framed revolvers are not as well made as their steel-framed counterparts. It would seem that their fit and finish is sacrificed at the factory, but the brass is made to gleam to catch the unaware buyer's eye.
Yes, I have seen very well made brass-framed revolvers, and I've seen poorly made steel-framed guns, but anymore they are the exception and not the rule.
For a newcomer, I'd suggest a .44 caliber so you can easily purchase oversized balls of .454 and .457 inch. Forget the advice to use .451 inch balls, the larger ball not only seals better but tends to be more accurate.
This, I believe, is due to the wider bearing band created by the larger ball, which gives more of an area for the rifling to grip.
I posted this theory more than 10 years ago on internets. I had never seen it discussed before, or noted. Now, many post it as gospel and say it's proven.
I have yet to see a study proving it, but it's my belief and educated guess.
All I know is that my revolvers tend to shoot more accurately with the larger balls. I use .454 and .457 inch in all my .44s, and .380 inch in my .36s.

I've been shooting cap and ball revolvers since about 1970. Learned a few things along the way but it tooks years of trial and error to get there. And i'm still learning.

 

[TheRodDoc]

These black powder revolvers should not blow back from the nipples.

To do so the hammer has to be blowing back off of the nipple for a fraction of a second. This breaks the seal of the cap on the nipple. And either blowing the spent cap clear off the nipple or blowing it open depending on how far the hammer went back.

A properly made gun should not let this happen.
The cap should stay pressed on the nipple while firing. And it's not how tight the cap was on the nipple doing this, it is only the ability of the hammer to hold it on the nipple. If the flash hole was to big the hammer spring has to be heaver. And or lighter loads.

for sure you don't want a unfired cap to fall off before it is fired so they must fit the nipple to stop that.

I enlarged the second and third frame of the time lap picture of a revolver igniteing. As you can see in the second frame the hammer is being blown back. The third frame it is sitting back on the nipple. When that hammer flew back that ruined the cap seal causing the flash from the nipple. There should not be a flash there. Or a very small one if any. In that picture there is a full gas force comming from the nipple hole which is what blew the hammer back. To big of load, to big of flash hole or weak hammer spring or all three.

View attachment 119458

 

[TheRodDoc]

I forgot to mention that the hammer fit in the gun can also cause the cap to not seal. If the cylinder gap gets to large for the way the hammer was originally fitted then the hammer can't hold the cap seal tight.

A well made gun has a hammer that stops just short of touching the nipple with out a cap on it. This is with the cylinder pushed ahead. But will ignite the cap and hold the cap tight to the nipple when the charge is ignited.

 

[Bluehawk]

I agree...the hammer should not blow back off the capped nipple during ignition. If it does...as mentioned by RodDoc...something is wrong.