Looking into loading 45-70: Suggestions/experiences wanted

[FieroCDSP]

Hi, folks. A friend stopped in work the other day and asked if I sold 45-70 (of course I don't). He complained about the price and wondered what I knew about reloading. After a lengthy explaination of start-upcosts, press selection, etc, I told him to stop by on Sunday and I'd lend him my copy of ABC's.
After he left, I though about it some more, I decided to do what I can to take him under my wing and gets him some learnings. I've been staring at my manuals and most list a different SAAMI spec pressure for Trapdoor rifles vs most others. I can't remember which type of rifle he specificly said he had (I want to say it's a Marlin) but my questions aren't so specific to that as they are general. I can find out that info later and use the properly pressured data as needed.

1:Looking up the bullets availiable, I run into listings for 45's (I'd imagine meaning Colt) and occasionally some listed specificly for 45-70. Would any of those 300-400 grain .458/.459 bullets work? Or should I stick to specific 45-70 listed bullets?

2:He said he likes the way the Hornaday Leverlution ammo performs. Midway doesn't carry the leverlution bullets on their own. Anybody know where I can get them?

3:Any particular issues you've had with loading the cartridge? Tips, tricks, cheats, etc.

4:What kind of brass life should be expected, assuming medium to med-high loads and a rifle properly head-spaced.

5:Experiences with the roll-crimps. Heavier better? Jacketed/plated vs Lead crimping differences.

6:Your favorite loads?

 

[lordgroom]

Here is a recent post with some load suggestions. Sorry I can't answer more.

I have heard that a firm roll crimp is needed.

 

[lordgroom]

Oops. Here is the link.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=369235

 

[Atlasx]

Looking into loading 45-70: Suggestions/experiences wan

to start with, I have yet to load my first 45-70 cartridge, but there is a reason for that. I recently bought a Marlin LX mdl 1895, nice rifle. I also bought some lever evolution Hornady ammo(325 gr) along with some remington ammo (405 gr.). Recoil from the 325 gr ammo wqas niticably heavier than from the 405 gr. stuff.
I looked up 45-70 loadings in all the books I have and found there is at least 3 different power levels for 45-70 ammo. (1) for trapdoors the lowest power level due to older rifles still in use (2) loads for mdl 1895 Marlin lever rifles (3) loads for Ruger rifles #1 and #3 . There may be a new level for the Lever Evolution ammo but to date Hornady has not sold the Lever Evolution bullet in its reloading components so no real data is available. You need to be careful which power level you "play" with and keep them in their respective safety range.
I did buy the dies to load 45-70 and I also bought Starline Brass but am waiting a while to see if the Lever Evolution components become available. I am buying the ammo now for my rifle. You might also question Marlin if there is a difference in their model 1895s and their models designed for the Lever evolution ammo. That is about the extent of what I know so far.

Atlasx

 

[Cypress]

1.One of the reasons for the 45-70 designation on some bullets is that they will work in lever action rifles. You can't use a round nose bullet in a lever gun because of the possibility of mag detonation. Also a lot of .458 bullets are too long for use in the 45-70. 2.I have not seen any leverevolution sold as components. 3. I believe brass life is similar to a straight wall pistol if loads are kept reasonable. 4. reloader 7 and imr 3031 are good powders for this cartridge.

 

[kragluver]

1. Bullets for .45 pistols will be under-sized (.451-.452). Use .457-.458 caliber bullets. Just about every manufacture makes applicable bullets. I've had good luck with the inexpensive Remington 405s. I know primarily shoot my own cast bullets though.

2. To my knowledge, the LeverLution bullets are not yet on the market as reloading components. In my opinion, they may do fine in a .30-30, but you're never going to make a "flat shooting" rifle out of a .45-70. I've read the performacne comparisons for the .45-70 with the LeverLution and I'm not sold on them. I think they are a fine idea in a .30-30 (another cartridge I load for). I would stick with the traditional flat nose bullets for .45-70.

3. No issues. The .45-70 is a very easy cartridge to handload for. Just be sure and remember to flare your brass before seating the bullet. Its just like loading a big pistol cartridge. When you shoot .45-70, you're not just shooting a rifle, you're shooting history

4. I've been shooting A LOT of .45-70 over the past 3 years and have had no brass issues. I use Remington brass exclusively. I know many have had good luck with Winchester and Starline brass as well.

5. Lee Factory Crimp Die -- this is one caliber that needs it. They're inexpensive and worth it. I've used nothing else.

6. I have a Marlin 1895 with a 22" barrel. I put a Williams receiver sight on it and a Williams front fire sight. I also put a Limbsaver recoil pad on it. My personal practical hunting range limit for this rifle is 150 yds. I practice a lot to make sure I can make reliable hits from field positions out to 150. Beyond 150, the trajectory really starts to fall off. The round is still very accurate to some extreme ranges (google "sandyhook .45-70" for a real interesting read about extreme long range shooting with the old Trapdoor rifle). The trick is knowing the range and your bullet's trajectory. The .45-70 will never be a flat shooter. That said, with an open-sighted rifle, trying to flatten the trajectory beyond a reasonable 100-150 yds really only equates to more recoil. The Marlin is a lightweight rifle and recoil will become an issue with the full power loads. I could see an argument for pushing range out to 200 yds or maybe a bit more with a scoped rifle. However, I have a .270 and a .30-06 if I need to hunt where long range shots may be had. My Marlin rifles are brush guns.

I started out with the Rem 405s using H322. I had good success with it from an accuracy standpoint (46 gr of 322 worked well with CCI 200s). I started trying cast bullets in it about 2 years ago and I haven't looked back. I use the Lee 340 gr cast from pure WW over 23 gr of SR 4759 and CCI200s. This load gives very good accuracy and 1265 fps at the muzzle. Keep hunting shots within 150 yards and it makes a great hunting and target load. By doing my own casting, I can load this round very cheaply. Just for fun, I shoot at a small, steel buffalo (about the size of a sheep) at 375 yds. (I wouldn't try this in the field.) Its really quite easy to keep all of my rounds on the plate. You can literally squeeze the trigger, take off your ear plugs and make it to the spotting scope in time to see the round strike.

IMHO -- unless your friend intends to hunt grizzly with his rifle, I would load something in the mid 300-400 gr bullet size and shoot for black powder-like muzzle velocities -- somewhere in the 1300 fps range. I still have a bunch of those 405 loads with H322, but they are not fun to shoot at the range. The shoulder really begins to feel it after about 10 rds or so. Finally, the Lyman #48 book has a lot of .45-70 load data in it.

 

[FieroCDSP]

Thanks, folks. Great info, Kragluver, that's what I was looking for.

 

[plinky]

I don't have a great deal of data as I have found a few good loads and stuck with them.

For lighter loads (Contender strength) I use Sierra 300gr JHPs and H322. Good for 1800 fps and really good accuracy.

For my 22" Marlin, I use 300 Sierras again but with IMR 4198. Shoots very well but not near advertised velocities. Probably my barrel. It was a really good looking used gun, but the barrel is seriously pitted. Still. it shoots.

For Encore 15" I use Speer 400gr with lots of RE7. Brutal power. Not sure about accuracy yet. I mean it is good by normal handgun standards but it doesn't seem as good as the Contender.

Gotta go with kragluver on the Leverlution. It's a short fat bullet no matter what you do. Looks like you would need a special seating punch too.

I'll have to checkout that factory crimp die.

 

[kragluver]

Plinky's comments on velocity being different from the book -- I've found this to be true as well. The cast bullet loads track the Lyman book's velocities pretty closely (using SR4750). However, the loads I worked up with H322 and the Rem 405 have higher velocities than the Lyman book states. I stopped well before the max book load as my shoulder and common sense told me to. I have another friend who shoots .45-70 and he said his velocities were not what the book quoted. In all my other rifles, loads out of the various books track the published muzzle velocities closely -- but not the .45-70 (even when adjusting velocity for barrel length).

 

[Kosh75287]

I've never reloaded for .45-70. I have a friend who in his early days of gun ownership bought a Springfield Armoury Trapdoor model, and a Lee Loader. He wore out a couple of rubber mallets with all the ammo he made. It seems to me he used 2400, and his velocities with 405 grain bullets were in the 1100-1300 f/s range. I've seen data for the .45-70 using powders as fast as Unique and as slow as H4895. In a sense, I guess the .45-70 is the ".45 ACP of the rifle set". Almost any powder within the range of application will make it go, and usually with good result. And in both cases, the velocities aren't anything to write home about, the the terminal effect is hard to beat.

 

[mkl]

There's quite a bit of information on the CAS (Cowboy Action Shooting) sites and foums for loading the 45-70. Google for URL's.

The Lee Factory Crimp Die is a good investment, especially with some of the heavy loads in the Marlins. Those big 400+ grain bullets can start to back out unless you have a heavy crimp.

Overall, a great cartridge to reload and very easy.

Only problem I've heard of is that the very early Marlin rifles used the "micro-groove" rifling and would not stablize lead bullets very well. Marlin changed to "ballard" rifling after a year or so of production to fix the problem.

If your friend's rifle has a micro-groove barrel, use only jacked bullets, or very low velocity lead.

Hope this helps.

 

[kragluver]

I've not personally tried lead in my micro-grooved 336 (in .30-30) but my understanding is that micro-groove will shoot cast just fine. You just have to be careful to size 0.001 over bore diameter. I take it that folks that have trouble shooting cast in the micro-grooved barrels aren't shooting properly sized bullets.

 

[mkl]

I've not personally tried lead in my micro-grooved 336 (in .30-30)

The OP was asking about 45-70 loads.

The stabilization problem with lead bullets was for the 45-70 only.

Lead in my Marlin 30-30 with micro-groove shoots just fine; don't worry about your 30-30.

Again, 45-70 only had a problem. Big bullet, huge inertia, hard to get spin up with shallow grooves because bullet "slipped." The deeper Ballard (or pretty much standard rifling now days) grooves "bite" the big, heavy, lead bullets harder and will allow them to spin up without slippage.

 

[achildofthesky]

Try visiting marlinowners.com for a great deal of levergun specific 45-70 (and other lever calibers) stuff. I load a fair amount of 300 gr hornady & remington and 350 gr hornady. Just been using H4198 for propellant. From mild to dang, that is a spicy load... Milder loads are surprisingly powerful.

Be safe and have fun

Patty

 

[AlabamaEd]

Please remember that there are 3 levels of power for the 45-70 hand loads. The Lever Marlin 1895 are in the middle. Please use a good reloading manual (I use Hornady) and do not exceed what the book has. I have a Marlin 1895 and it is very accurate using the Hornady 350 bullet and H4198. I have a peep sight on it and can group 2" at 100YDS. I have shot deer to slightly over 100yds. There is a lot of power in the 45-70, it is a very accurate and powerful load. I have also shot several pigs with it, and a coyote. All dropped where they were. You will be pleased with the gun and caliber.

 

[Down South]

I cast and load for the 45-70. I haven't been loading for this caliber long so I can't give you a lot of experience. It’s true there are different loads for the 45-0's. Basically what you have is trap door loads, lever loads and Ruger No.1 with the No.1 loads being the higher-pressure loads.
It's also true about the problem with micro groove barrels on the 45-70’s but cast can be shot in them just fine if you have your stuff together. I'm including a link from a guy who knows his stuff about the Marlins and he makes moulds that will perform.
http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/

 

[ArchAngelCD]

FieroCDSP,
You are in luck big time....
This months issue of Guns&Ammo (July 2008 Volume 52, No. 7) has an extensive write up on the .45-70 Gov. In it Author Steve Gash talks about 8 different Cast bullets from 3 companies and there's a chart with a page full of loads, many specifically tested in a Springfield Trap Door. I'm sure you can still find a copy on the shelf somewhere and it will be more than worth the price. They have exactly what you are looking for and more in the article and accompanying load data chart.

If for some reason you can't find a copy of that Guns&Ammo I'll try to transpose the chart for you but it's a very big chart and that would take some time.

 

[flashhole]

Read this

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/49

 

[Cypress]

Got my Cast performance 405's up and running today. TOO MUCH!!!! Clocking in at around 1925 fps with my old load. I think I've got a little shaken baby syndrome!

 

[Geno]

All of my .45-70 Gov't reload experience is for the Ruger No. 1, and for the Encore pistol. Those firearms can withstand high pressure. Such loads absolutely cannot be used in lever action rifles.

Anyone who wants to load the .45-70 needs to purchase a manual that addresses a wide range of rifle applications. My favorite load was the 350 grain hollow point, and the 400 grain flat point. They hit like a freight train! No boar ever went more than about 12 feet after being hit. Most dropped instantly.

 

[ftierson]

Loads for the .45/70 using the Remington 405 grain jacketed bullet should be running around 1700/1750 at the top end without stressing the Marlin M1895...

I use the Remington 405gr jacketed bullets and H335 powder to produce a little over 1700 fps (chronographed, not guesstimated) from my micro-grooved Marlin M1895.

If you've been shooting the 405gr Remington jacketed factory load (which produces about 1250 fps), be prepared for the rifle to boot you pretty good when you shoot 405 grain bullets at 1700+ fps...

The Lee Factory Crimp Die works very well for jacketed bullets in the .45/70 Govt...

Have fun...

Forrest

 

[gtmerkley]

the same bullet tip should work as user for .45 colt but i am not 100% shur