Looking to buy my first AK- I'm COMPLETELY LOST! HELP!

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doberman

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Between searching here and browsing through Gunbroker my head is ready to explode!

I'm looking to purchase my first AK and want to get as much education as I can before I put any money down. I'm not willing to buy something and later find myself stuck with something I'm not satisfied with. We've all done it before haven't we?:D

Anyway, I'm a bit confused by the many different descriptions of "AK" type rifles so I'm asking for some basic info. I'm sure it's been asked here many times but not having a lot of luck searching.

First of all I'm looking for the basic service AK in 7.62x39, no frills, but a reliable rifle. I've been down this path before when I got the AR bug. I managed to buy AND build an AR with all the "bells and whistles"(expensive) only to find the basic 20" mil-spec (as it was intended) was the best fit for me. I don't wish to go down that path again with the AK.

The first step is to get a basic understanding of the desriptions.

Explain to me:

SAR
WASAR
MAADI
MAK90
SAIGA
ETC. (add and explain any and all I've missed)

and

The countries of manufacture and their importance.
Yugo, Russian, China, Romanian etc.

Please, only a few minutes of your time may save me months
of confusion and frustration. I'm due for a new project.

Sincerely,
Dobie
 
well pretty much any ak you go with you are going to have a reliable rifle. The design is made to be reliable and I havent seen one that hasn't been thus far. The only reliability issues Ive seen have had to deal with crappy magazines and newly manufactured ones are the worst. Military surplus magazines is what I have gone with and have never looked back. I have a romanian wasr and have had zero problems. The sar is also romanian. ive been told the main difference is the sar has a little better fit and finish than the wasr. The wasr I have has some rough wood that isnt finished. If you want to put some time into it you can finish it yourself. All of the romanian ones have chrome lined barrels and that is something I would want with an ak. The yugo aks tend to cost more but they do not have chrome lined barrels although most reports say they are more accurate than the romanians. Ive never really shot for groups with my ak because its just too much fun to throw lead down range. The saiagas are a more sporterized version made in russia and supposedly have the best accuracy of them all. They are very reasonably priced but do not take standard ak mags. I would get something that takes standard ak mags just for the fact that they are cheaper and easier to find. you really cant go wrong with any of them, theyre all going to pretty much go bang every time. thats about all I have to help you out but good luck and good shooting.
 
If possible go with the milled receiver models, they just seem more solid to me than the stamped steel ones. I have a milled receiver one from Arsenal and it performs great.
 
Doberman,

Sounds like you've been down the EBR road before and know how involved (Read: expensive) it can be.

Answering a few questions could help us help you:

Do you still have your tricked-out AR's?
What price range do you want to stay in?
Are you looking for something you will do ZERO alteration to?


I'll answer what I can of your questions--

SAR

Romanian AK imported by Century. Has reciever magazine dimples which reduce magazine wobble found in the WASRs. Has NO muzzle brake. The one I had did NOT have a treaded barrel. Average accuracy. Has a low-quality finish on metal and wood similar to WASR's. Rifle is no longer imported, so you would be buying used. I've been seeing them in the 450-ish price range. It isn't worth that when there are better ones available for not much more. SARs come in 7.26x39, 5.45x39, and 223.


WASAR

Romanian AK imported by Century. Has no receiver magazine dimples and therefore MAY have some magazine wobble. Wobble is caused in the ones that were originally low-capacity rifles and were dremeled out to take double stack magazines. Low-quality finish on metal and wood. Some have complained about canted front sights or gas blocks--this was a potential problem in SAR's as well. Inspect before you buy. It is a good value-low end AK. I think these can come in 7.26x39, 5.45x39, and 223.

MAADI

Egyptian AK variant. I don't know a lot about these, but I do know that many people who have them LOVE them. Not imported anymore, so you will be buying used. I believe they come standard with the thumbhole stock.

MAK90

Chinese AK variant. These do have some different dimensions than some of the other common AKs (such as barrel diameter). Not a big deal there, since many others vary in dimensions. Many consider the Chinese AKs some of the highest quality AKs made. These aren't imported anymore, and you'll probably pay more than you'd like for one. I believe they come standard with the thumbhole stock.

SAIGA

Sporterized Russian AK. This comes standard with a sporting stock and low capacity magazine. They are very inexpensive in stock configuration. However, many (including myself) consider them one of the highest quality AKs you can purchase. In addition, Saigas are typically FAR more accurate than other AK's, and comes in a variety of calibers. Many people opt to convert the rifle back to the military configuration and alter it to accept standard magazines. Information on this can be found in the Saiga forum link in my signature. In addition, there are many professional converters who will convert for you (I did this) but it will add to the overall cost. These are available in 7.26x39, 223, and 308 Winchester. They can come with 16" or 21" barrels. The 7.62x 39's can use traditional AK magazines if you install a bullet guide. The 223 ones can use either Galil magazines or Oralite magazines with the installation of the proper bullet guide. FBMG makes proprietary 20 round magazines for the 308.

I have a converted Saiga 308 with the 16" barrel.



ETC. (add and explain any and all I've missed)


Take a look at Aresnal's Bulgarian AK rifles. These are considered one of the best AKs you can buy. Fit and Finish is superb. Obviously not cheap.

For a quality middle-of-the-road AK with good finish and workmanship, you may want to take a look at the AKs from Vector Arms. These are built on Polish Kits. I have one of the Vector AK-47 Underfolders that I am VERY satisfied with. Vector even makes a milled receiver AK now as well.

I am sure others will add to this, and I may as well.


EDIT: This link may help you sort all of this out:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=249896&highlight=AK's

Good luck!

John
 
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I'd get a WASR, a lot of complaints on mag wobble but seriously simple to fix if it bugs you. Plus they still go for under 300 bucks, way cheaper than any others on the market, you still get rock solid AK performance. For my personal dream machine (if you are handy) get a polish underfolder parts kit and a new receiver for about 60 bucks and build the polish underfolder, my fav AK ever! You always buy a brand new saiga (AK) for about 275$ too.
 
If you want a quality AK...

The SAR and WASR are considered "low" on the list of quality AK's. They work, but do not have the fit and finish of some of the nicer varients.

If you want a great AK at a good price, go for a Vector Model. They are very nicely made and are a few notches above the SAR/WASR models.

If you want a decent list of whats currently out there to buy go to Atlantic firearms website*.

http://atlanticfirearms.com/programming/listview.asp?CatId=2

If you scroll down you will see the different AK's and around the price you should be paying for them. The Vector fixed stock goes for 499. AR15.com members get a discount from what I hear. If you are a member of ar15.com, Ak47.net is a sister forum (just click ak47) and a good resource for AK knowledge.


Good luck with your research and eventual purchase. My next firearm will probably be a Vector underfolder because, well, they just look cool!:D




*Please note that while I live in Maryland I have nothing to do with Atlanticfirearms.com.:)
 
AK's of all breeds are certain to go bang and be satisfying...

What are ya lookin for in an AK?
What caliber?

I went .223 with the bottom of the barrel. the Romanian WASR-3... now i wish i snagged that WASR-2 instead, but thats life fer ya.

Also, the romanian line up is good to start with... with a rifle as commercially available as that, its easier to find parts and toys to build it up with. not to mention the whole "rough tough AK look" that comes with almost all models (especially the WASR-10)

You can worry less about breaking a romanian than you would a bulgarian.

Good luck! no matter your choice, I think you wont be disappointed.
 
I have both a WASR-2 and a Maadi MISR. Maadis were built on Russian tooling which supposedly makes their quality up their with Russian AKs. I don't know how true that is, but my Maadi shoots quite accurately. The WASR-2 is a Romanian model. As others have mentioned the finish on the Romanian AKs leaves something to be desired. It's basically light parkerization over stainless steel. The wood on the Romanian AKs is also untreated- I don't believe that it is going to rot, but it will absorb your sweat stains- easily treatable with a quick coat of finish for a couple bucks though- I've left mine unfinished, if you're wondering. As far as accuracy goes, my Romanian is actually very accurate. Offhand with a red dot sight (attached by the side-rail mount included on all romanians) I can get 1 inch or less groups at 25 yards... and I consider myself a pretty average shooter.

Ignore people who tell you AKs aren't accurate. If you adjust the iron sights or add a red dot sight, trust me, they won't disappoint.

The general rule should be get the best you can afford. Also, I'd recommend getting one in 7.62x39 or 5.45x39. They're always available, relatively cheap, and were what AKs were originally chambered for (the 47 and 74 anyways).

May I also add that all guns eventually get dinged or scratched. On AKs though it only adds character. I'd care about tooling marks on the WASR but, what the hell? It's an AK, not a $100K Beretta shotgun.
 
WASR is the way to go. cheap and reliable.i bought mine off a friend who needed money. came with wood up front and a synthetic side folder. the pin for the folder broke several months after. i temporarily fixed it by using a screw to hold it in the open position. the stock wasnt stable, so i decided to go synthetic all around. it now has a Aimpoint mounted to it. cant go wrong with em
 
Maybe this is a stupid question, but can I buy 5 or 10rd magazines (so I can use it for hunting) for a Ak that comes with 30rd magazines? Or can all Aks take both. I don't want to hijack the thread but I'm confused too.
 
5 round mags are available, although sometimes hard to find. They are always (I believe) US production, so they will be pricey. 10 rounders are a bit easier to find. http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/MAG023-1523-1296.html

You could also plug up a mag to restrict its capacity, but I've never done that and wouldn't know the best way to do it.
 
I've got an uncoverted Saiga, and it's a blast to shoot. I'm looking at picking another up, and those Vector's are quite appealing. How bad is the middle of the road fit and finish compared to the Saiga?
 
Maybe this is a stupid question, but can I buy 5 or 10rd magazines (so I can use it for hunting) for a Ak that comes with 30rd magazines? Or can all Aks take both. I don't want to hijack the thread but I'm confused too.

A double stack 10-rnd mag should be perfect...
check www.k-var.com for the mags.

Keep the hi-cap 30 rnders on ya "just in case"...
 
Yugo.

This depends on what do you want. If you want a reliable simple, accurate AK
I hear that Yugo M70 is very good.
If you want all the bells and whistles, and want to pay through the nose go for SLR or Vector.
It doesn't have bells and whistles of SLR, but it is half the price of one.
Mikhail Kalashinikov himself said that Yugoslavian models are one of the best.
If you do have the money, get Valmet M72 the quality is MUCH better then on those overprised SLRs, also, you may want to take a look at Galil. Those are also very good. STAY AWAY FROM AKs in 7.62x39 MADE FROM SAIGA RIFLES. THe receiver on Saiga is 1.2mm. The receiver on M70 is 1.6mm for example.
 
I've got both a 5 round and 10 round for my 7.62x39 AK's. I believe the 5 round is a chinese magazine.


John
 
I went with a WASR GP 10 underfolder. The finish was awful ,I stripped it and refinished it , it functions great, shoots like a scalded dog .and the best part it was inexpensive.
 
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Here's the thing with AKs. While in general it's a good design, built with reliability in mind, that's never a guarantee. Majority of AK in this country are built from kits on receivers of questionable quality, by people who don't care much about quality - read Century. No, not all of Century stuff is crap, but they've been known to put out a stinker. Canted sights, canted gas blocks, out of spec receivers that don't run, etc. On their WASR rifles, magwells often look like a monkey worked on it. Some aren't open enough to accept certain mags, like excellent Bulgy polymer ones. Other magwells are open so much that mags wobble like crazy. Even with companies that charge more than double what a Century built turd will cost, you can frequently run into issues. I've shot and handled plenty of Arsenal guns that had the infamous canted sight issue. I've shot a couple of Saigas that were converted by highly respected AK builders and had issues ranging from canted sights, to improperly installed underfolder stocks, muzzle brakes that were screwed on crooked and deflected bullets (not being able to hit paper and copper shavings in my face was a first clue), etc.

Basically, if you have a shop around that has a large selection of AK rifles, go in and buy one in person. Check for jacked up sights, run the action and make sure it doesn't stick in any spots, insert several types of mags to make sure they fit, make sure that safety works, etc. I've been to shops where I'd go through almost a dozen of their AKs and find a problem with each one, so be prepared to shop around. If everything checks out, then it won't matter if you buy a $350 Century built WASR (are they that cheap still?), or a $1200+ Arsenal built AK with a milled receiver. They'll both run the same. Accuracy might be better in higher end guns, but not by much. Mostly, any extra money you spend is on finish, features (folding stocks, chromed barrels, no-ban configs...), but mostly on reputation of the company the name of which is stenciled on the receiver.

If you buy online, then buy from a company/manufacturer that will pay for shipping if you have to return it to remedy a problem, and keep your fingers crossed.
 
I'd get a WASR, a lot of complaints on mag wobble but seriously simple to fix if it bugs you. Plus they still go for under 300 bucks, way cheaper than any others on the market, you still get rock solid AK performance. For my personal dream machine (if you are handy) get a polish underfolder parts kit and a new receiver for about 60 bucks and build the polish underfolder, my fav AK ever! You always buy a brand new saiga (AK) for about 275$ too.

+1 :)

get a wasr-10 or saiga, that way if you don't like them for any reason, you didn't spend a lot of money...but if you like them, you'll have a good rifle...wasr's and saiga's have the side-rail, so you can add a scope or reddot to them

edit: be careful :scrutiny:, once you own an ak and you like them , you'll want to own them all :neener: it happen to me... now i have 2 in different calibers..and i know it's not going to end there :D

click the pictures...

AK-47 (wasr-10)



Saiga .223

 
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Do not get a WSAR! They are the worst of the AKs out there. They give AKs a bad name. Save up and get a brand new Arsenal Inc AK. I have one and the quality is phenominal. They are some of the best AKs out there.
 
Do not get a WSAR! They are the worst of the AKs out there. They give AKs a bad name. Save up and get a brand new Arsenal Inc AK. I have one and the quality is phenominal. They are some of the best AKs out there.

Not true, like stated in previous posts,you need to look at them, I do agree that when Century puts out a turd it is a true turd.I was able to luck out with 2 WASRs with no issues, I did have to look at them carefully, they work great and were inexpensive.
 
STAY AWAY FROM AKs in 7.62x39 MADE FROM SAIGA RIFLES. THe receiver on Saiga is 1.2mm. The receiver on M70 is 1.6mm for example.

BIG FREAKING DEAL! Clue stick, .4 mm doesn't confer a vast qualitative difference. You could drive the same truck over both of them with the same end result. The yugo M70 is a fine AK variant and so is the saiga. Plus the saiga has chrome lined barrels if that is important to you. Conversion is not that big of a deal. I like my saigas and for me factory fresh and not kit built has value in itself.

If you want a built like a 4 ton instead of 2 ton truck AK look at the AES10-B at classicarms.us. Very interesting for 399
 
I love my converted saiga. and the conversion was surprisingly easy. they do take standard AK mags, you just have to file the mag catch slightly

7.62x39 Saiga -- $250
FFL transfer -- $25
Shipping -- $13
Conversion parts -- $130
----------------------------------
High quality NEW AKM, made in Russia..... ~$418 total (YMMV)

th_DSC02927.jpg
 
Here's a SAR-1 (civilian AKM in 7.62x39mm), which is about as close as you can get to the look and feel of a real AKM:

med_gallery_260_23_20379.jpg


16.5" barrel, 1mm thick stamped receiver, magazine located by stamped dimples, just like the real thing. The only things it lacks are a bayonet lug and a threaded muzzle.

Some people like the heavier 1.6mm (RPK style) receivers, or the (much heavier) milled receivers, but IMO since the 1mm stamped receiver is good enough for the Russian AKM, and has proven plenty durable without excess weight, 1mm is fine.

SAR's are no longer imported, but you can still get WASR's (similar, but without the mag dimples, although post-'04 WASR's do have bayonet lugs and muzzle brakes). If you buy one, just make sure you can examine the rifle in person first, to ensure that the gas block and front sight are on straight.

The Yugoslavian AK's currently imported by Century are also said to be a good value for the money.

If you pay more, you can get nicer fit and finish, but a SAR works just as well as a more expensive AK.

I will say that the factory iron sights on most AK's leave a lot to be desired compared to the sights on an AR, and an optic makes the platform a lot more shootable. There are a lot of ex-Warsaw-Pact milspec optics designed for the AK that are now available on the civilian market; that's a Russian Kobra on mine, above. It mounts on the standard Warsaw Pact optics rail on the left side of the receiver, and most AK's come with the rail (and those that don't come with it standard usually have it available as an option, or you can have a gunsmith add one later).

gallery_260_23_3070.jpg


IMO, the place to go for eastern-bloc AK optics is Tantal:

collimators33.jpg
 
AKs are like sex--even with they're bad, they're still pretty good. As mentioned, most AKs will be functional and reliable from day one, regardless of how much you pay for them. What you pay for in an AK is fit and finish, and to a lesser extent, accuracy. No AK is ever going to be a varmint or target rifle. But the upper end ones like the Saiga conversions and Arsenals can get close to 2 MOA or better, while the cheaper ones will usually do about twice that, or a little more.

The SARs and WASRs, as noted are all Romanian. The SAR was pre-ban and has the receiver dimples, because they were always manufactured to take standard capacity magazines. The WASR came out during the ban. The ban rifles do not have threaded barrels or dimples in the receiver because many were originally manufactured to accept single stack magazines, and converted to accept the standard capacity magazines. This can lead to mag wobble, which can be distracting but is rarely a reliability issue. Some of the earlier ones had canted front sight blocks and horrible trigger slap, but these issues are largely absent on newer rifles, many of which are being assembled with good-quality American made TAPCO G2 trigger groups. In general, these rifles are decent, reliable rifles, though fit and finish can leave much to be desired, and accuracy will not be quite what other rifles are capable of. My brother and I both bought WASRs during the AWB and have made them into project guns. We've dumped a lot of money into them learning the platform and figuring out what we like and don't like. Both rifles have been very reliable, and both have been 4 to 5 MOA guns. This will put rounds COM out to 300 yards, which is all the Kalashnikov was designed for, so we have no complaints. While the WASR is functional as is, I view it best as a project gun to be upgraded and accessorized. This doesn't sound like what you are looking for, so I might avoid the SAR and the WASR.

The MAADI is Egyptian, as noted. They generally have good reputations, but I have no experience with them, so I'll leave that to those that do.

The MAK-90 is a Chinese imported AK version, typically characterized by the thumbhole stock. They are usually very good rifles, though they may not accept all AK accessories because some critical dimensions are slightly off. They are, in my experience, a little more accurate than the Romanian guns, turning 3 to 4 MOA.

The Saiga is the last of the Russian manufactured AKs. Very good quality barrels and actual Russian made receivers make them reportedly excellent rifles, esp for the money. Most have traditional style stocks, but builders such as Tromix will convert them to pistol grip configuration with your choice of furniture, or you can find instructions to do it yourself. A Saiga conversion is one way to an awesome semi-auto AK straight from the hands of Mr. Kalashnikov himself, but again, it involves some messing around to convert it, so if you just want to buy the rifle and shoot it, this may not be the best choice for you.

The Yugos are also excellent AKs. Like their SKS rifles, the Yugo AKs are faithful and well-built reproductions of the Russian stuff, with the notable exception that they lack chrome lined barrels. Most Yugos come as kits or kit builds, and these are drying up, so the Yugos are getting harder to find and more expensive. I hear good things about them, but if you want one, you better leap on it before they disappear.

Other notable mentions would be Vector, for a good upper/middle-class AK, or Arsenal, for a top-tier reproduction, with the price to match. While we are on the subject of Arsenal, we should probably discuss stamped vs. milled receivers. While some milled MAK-90s and, IIRC, Yugos, exist on the market, the most popular examples of the milled receiver will be the Arsenals. When the Russians first began mass producing the Kalashnikov, it used a combination of stamped and machined parts. Later, they switched to fully machined rifles milled receivers. These rifles proved too spendy and complex to mass produce, so in the late 50s, the rifle was redesigned with a stamped receiver and adopted as the AKM, "M" standing for "Modernized." In addition to the stamped receiver, this rifle was given a simple, slanted muzzle compensator and some other small changes. It is this rifle that the Russians manufactured and exported by the millions, and this rifle that earned the AK its reputation for durability and reliability under adverse conditions. However, some feel that the milled receiver rifles, though heavier and more costly, are more durable and accurate than the stamped receiver rifles. The milled receiver was used for the Valmet and the Galil, and may be part of the reasons the Israelis have all but abandoned the Galil due to cost and weight concerns. I personally do not feel like the milled receiver rifles are worth the weight. Some of them tip the scales at over 9 lbs. If I am going to carry that much weight, I am going to carry an actual battle rifle like the FAL or M1A. However, if you are interested in a milled receiver rifle, the increase in weight may admittedly not be a concern for the typical range warrior, and Arsenal supposedly makes some of the very best. The milled receiver rifles are discernible by the large rectangular lightening cuts on the receiver above the magazine well.

Here's a pic of a milled receiver:
ak_54.jpg


And a stamped receiver AKM:
akm.jpg


Do not get a WSAR![sic] They are the worst of the AKs out there. They give AKs a bad name.

O horse pucky!

The WASR may be bottom of the barrel, so to speak, but they aren't crap and they are perfectly functional representations of the Kalashnikov capable of doing just about anything the AK was ever intended to do. And as a project gun for someone who wants to learn the intricacies of the platform, it represents an excellent opportunity to tinker, modify, and experiment. This is my WASR as I near completion with it. I have been strapped for cash lately, but it is "getting there," slowly but surely. I need only thread the barrel and Duracoat it. The rifle shoots gallon water jugs at 150 yards, easily, from field positions and chugs right along despite my best efforts to make it fail.

AKKobraleftside.jpg
 
Do not get a WSAR![sic] They are the worst of the AKs out there. They give AKs a bad name.


Heard that little rumor...good thing I didnt listen.The WASR's I bought work very well (and inexpensive too),they do have a little mag wobble but not exceptionally bad,and for a AK accurate at 100 yards (death to all those water filled milk jugs).

Have a SLR-107CR,an M70AB2,a Lancaster NDS-3,1975 Bullpup,5 Saigas (2 converted)...the WASR's fit right in if thats what you are looking for...my next purchase is a PSL and a Valmet.
 
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