The_Quartermaster
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- Joined
- Oct 17, 2022
- Messages
- 474
If they can't figure out a progressive, then they won't be able to understand the single stage either then.
The way I see it, if setting up and running a progressive is all you know, then you don’t know what you don’t know and what you do know starts to seem easy while what you don’t know seems strange when you eventually learn about it. I call it the Bliss Syndrome: ignorance is bliss as long as you remain in a bubble of ignorance. I saw it with tool operators, programmers, motorcyclists….
So if you learn everything you need to know about reloading using a progressive then it will be easy to do everything you need to do on a progressive and anything else will seem strange and unnatural.
Or am I just way off in left field?
OP,
9. Find a seasoned reloader to help you set up the press first time. I found that very helpful!
Take your time and be safe!
If they can't figure out a progressive, then they won't be able to understand the single stage either then.
This is more about "I don't like it being done that way" than anything else.
If we were going to do things “The Right Way,” every wannabe reloader would start with an 8-cup percolator and a bag of roasted coffee beans. If they can’t make a good cup of coffee then they have no business trying to make safe ammo. Long before the TI’s taught us to use a weapon, they taught us how to walk, how to talk, how to eat, how to dress... Mostly, how to be useful human beings. And it all started with the understanding that there were exactly two ways to do things: the right way, or not at all.I'm not saying a person can't figure out a progressive, what I'm saying is give a noob reloader a chance to learn the craft. Not all people are mechanically inclined, either.... not that they can't learn, but everyone has a different learning aptitude and method. You throw the basics of safe reloading, AND the task of properly setting up a press like the LNL at the same time... you see? Some people will take to it lickety split, others not so much... and it's not a question of 'maybe they should take up tennis instead.'
Judging by your avatar, you are familiar with the Army, and Army BRM. Do the Drills just hand everyone a rifle and head to Range 1 for qualification? NO!
Going back to the 'right tool for the job.' Yes, a progressive is a fantastic tool... as is a quality single-stage press. I use my single-stage as much as my progressive... it's not a throw back to the Good ole Days, when men were men... but, to use the phrase... the right tool for the job, to handle the task at hand.
No, not really. It's more like 'I don't like it not being done MY way...'
In bold, it definitely checks out here.I'm not saying a person can't figure out a progressive, what I'm saying is give a noob reloader a chance to learn the craft. Not all people are mechanically inclined, either.... not that they can't learn, but everyone has a different learning aptitude and method. You throw the basics of safe reloading, AND the task of properly setting up a press like the LNL at the same time... you see? Some people will take to it lickety split, others not so much... and it's not a question of 'maybe they should take up tennis instead.'
Judging by your avatar, you are familiar with the Army, and Army BRM. Do the Drills just hand everyone a rifle and head to Range 1 for qualification? NO!
Going back to the 'right tool for the job.' Yes, a progressive is a fantastic tool... as is a quality single-stage press. I use my single-stage as much as my progressive... it's not a throw back to the Good ole Days, when men were men... but, to use the phrase... the right tool for the job, to handle the task at hand.
No, not really. It's more like 'I don't like it not being done MY way...'
I digress. You are free to opine just as much as I am but if you try to insist that there's only one way to learn, then I too will keep insisting that it is NOT the case here.
By the off chance, did you not figure it out that this is one these arguments where there is no wrong answer? Because there is none, and that's a fact.
not that they can't learn, but everyone has a different learning aptitude and method.
and I can count zero times the elevation wheel on the A2 was being taught.
100%! I don’t not use a progressive because I can’t figure it out or don’t understand the processes involved. Just the opposite, I don’t use a progressive because I understand the process extremely well and know it’s not compatible with my shooting, loading, or lifestyle. I shoot seldom, but when I shoot it’s a varied menu - from .32Short to .45Colt, possibly some .32ACP and a .45ACP, possibly a .30Carbine or .351 Winchester, all in one outing. I’m not shooting hundreds of rounds, I’m shooting a dozen or fewer. Of each. I may collect dirty brass until I have enough to process to fill a box or I may load the one or two of each caliber I shot and refill the box they came out of. It’s up to me and I like that flexibility. If I had to reset a progressive for six or ten or two rounds I wouldn’t. But I can sit outside with the hand press or a whack-a-mole and do the same job, just as well, maybe better, than if I had setup a progressive. I don’t have a “reloading room” - the world is my reloading room! - I have a mobile and lightweight reloading setup I can take anywhere, anytime, to reload anything.I guess it's time to chime in here....you know, since we had to drag army training in and all;-)
I used to be of the "start on a single" camp, and maybe still am to a certain degree. But these days, the hobby has progressed to the point that progressives are not difficult to learn, and there are more resources. 30 years ago, I had to learn from a crusty old retired CSM who ran the Ft Ord Sportsman's club. Now, there are literally thousands of resources to train. So my new philosophy is..sure, I won't argue that learning on a single is preferable to learn to practice the CRAFT of HAND LOADING... But not everybody wants to learn the craft...they want to minimize the amount of time they are cranking out high volume inexpensive range ammo in common calibers. So for those folks...starting with a progressive is the right decision. Of course, there is no excuse, and nor can I condone, starting with a product that isn't Blue.
BTW, the Army taught casting, patching, and where to place your tools inside, and where to wear your possibles bag as a precursor to BRM...150 years ago. Times change, training processes change, and Army BRM is not what it once was, but is likely better than it ever will be again. So life, changes in technology, and what people want goes. The only thing that doesn't change is that the enemy always gets a vote. Whether the enemy is time, resources, or a literal opposing force....it always gets a vote.
Your projection game is pretty strong there.Actually... we do agree in some respects, except you are so busy insisting I'm wrong... or, perhaps, not right.
Here is where I explain things as best as I can so that maybe you'll finally be able to understand here. I joined when we were still analog, BDU's, PRC-77's, PASGT, and all grey PT's with ALICE. I left after becoming part of Force 21 and into digital, ACU's, OCP, two more different PT's, a change in APFT standards, molle, RFI's, IBA's, IOTV's, SINGARS, no more irons, etc. And I am telling you that no matter what changed on the technical side it wasn't even that hard. This argument between us is not any different.What's an A2 elevation wheel??? I'm an '80's soldier... we had A1's back in the day. We had to wait until the enemy got in range...
I understand that for a very long time single stages were the only way to get it done, same for walnut media only for cleaning brass. But things have come a very long way with rotary wet tumbling and progressives.
So I'm a bit perplexed when people say that single stages are better for new people.
What is exactly overwhelming here?
I've successfully made 1 MOA or less at 100 yards Mk262 clones using just a progressive, so that's simply not true.If you intend to reload say 223, there are steps that you have to take that would make a progressive a lot less desirable.
Put shell on press and deprime and size
Do you tumble again to remove lube? When in process?
Take off press and swage or ream out military crimp on pocket
Put on Giraud trimmer to trim, chamfer and deburr
Ream inside of case
Put back on Progressive and powder, seat bullet and (maybe) crimp
Now I could buy a $ 1600+ Dillon to do some or all of these processes on it but..................
Also, I think that the repetitive nature of placing a case on the single stage and pulling the handle 100 times and then repeating the process for each step teaches us a lot.
Also fine tuning each station on a Progressive is also challenging, especially crimping a 9mm with mixed headstamps.
Hey Turk, a couple of things to keep in mind. You asked about cost and the thing is, you won’t save money reloading the common 9mm/5.56mm/7/62mm cartridges. The commercial and surplus offerings are just too cheap to compete. What you can do, after some experience and practice, is reload to your specific firearm’s preferences. That’s something the factories can’t do, only because they don’t have your barrel, chamber, breech face, gas tube, etc. etc. to examine and accommodate. You do!I’ve been watching YouTube videos on that particular press. I will read the manual thanks
Hopefully my answers embedded above worked... Reloading on a progressive is certainly possible as people have been doing it for decades.If you intend to reload say 223, there are steps that you have to take that would make a progressive a lot less desirable.
Put shell on press and deprime and size Yep
Do you tumble again to remove lube? When in process? When finished I wipe off cases with rag
Take off press and swage or ream out military crimp on pocket Only needs to be done first time and only if using crimped brass
Put on Giraud trimmer to trim, chamfer and deburr I chamfer before putting on the press. Maybe not ideal but it works.
Ream inside of case I don't do that
Put back on Progressive and powder, seat bullet and (maybe) crimp already on press...
Also, I think that the repetitive nature of placing a case on the single stage and pulling the handle 100 times and then repeating the process for each step teaches us a lot. Maybe, Maybe not.
Also fine tuning each station on a Progressive is also challenging, especially crimping a 9mm with mixed headstamps. Run the progressive as a turret press until the dies are set where they need to be. If using a single stage press do you adjust the crimp for every piece of brass?
If you intend to reload say 223, there are steps that you have to take that would make a progressive a lot less desirable.
Put shell on press and deprime and size
Do you tumble again to remove lube? When in process?
Take off press and swage or ream out military crimp on pocket
Put on Giraud trimmer to trim, chamfer and deburr
Ream inside of case
Put back on Progressive and powder, seat bullet and (maybe) crimp
Now I could buy a $ 1600+ Dillon to do some or all of these processes on it but..................
Also, I think that the repetitive nature of placing a case on the single stage and pulling the handle 100 times and then repeating the process for each step teaches us a lot.
Also fine tuning each station on a Progressive is also challenging, especially crimping a 9mm with mixed headstamps.
Wow! I don’t think I’ve ever heard of someone going from, “I’m thinking about reloading,” to “Load up the RT1500 and make 10,000 perfect rounds a day,” in one step with no tutoring other than YouTube videos and a forum post. Incredible! You’re a real freak of nature.Hmmmm.
Fill case feeder with brass, turn on RT1500, turn on vacuum, turn on autodrive. Dump yesterday's prepped brass into Revo, fill the Revo hoppers. Make coffee. Read email. Add cases to feeder, refill Revo hoppers. Reply to emails. Add cases to feeder. Eat breakfast, refill revo hoppers. Dump 5000 cases of trimmed, decapped, and swaged pieces of brass into cement mixer to tumble again and get the brass shavings off. Read for a while. Take 5,000 pieces of ready to load brass over to the Revolution, and take the 5K finished rounds to the cement mixer. Fill bullet feeder, fill case feeder, fill primer bowl. Start it up. Check email. put the finished ammo in cement mixer and run for 20 minutes. Fill all the hoppers again. Make some phone calls, other business. Fill hoppers. Set up other press, tune the dies. Fill Hoppers. Remove media from finished rounds, and start case gauging. Take the finished batch from the revo, and put in cement mixer for 20 minutes. Finish case gauging everything. Pack in containers. Total time elapsed: 6 hours, rounds made: 10,000. All sub MOA from a 20 inch AR.
Have fun with your hundred a day. The only thing you'll get out of pulling a single stage all day to load .223 that I won't get on an automated progressive is.......carpal tunnel syndrome.
Honestly, .223, 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP are case studies in automation and using progressive presses. If you're loading any of those on a single, you either a) don't shoot very much or b) have resource limitations. Time is my greatest resource, and the one I am shortest of....for me loading those calibers on a single stage simply makes no sense at all. None.