[email protected]
Member
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2008
- Messages
- 2,153
You Gotta Look
loose caps on nipples
- Thread starter beag_nut
- Start date
- Status
Fingers McGee
Member
Yep, That's it, thanks kwhi43. I don't know why my camera wouldn't focus on that shot.
arcticap
Member
beag_nut Post #45 said:
What they did back then was answered in an earlier post.
arcticap Post #13 said:
Last edited:
rem1858
Member
beag nut;
From post #21, I will ask again(maybe I missed the answer somewhere down the line ?)
How are you seating the caps onto the nipple ?
Are you just placing them on the nipple ?
Are you pushing them onto the nipple ?
Are you seating them onto the nipple ?
I do all 3 when capping.
I place a cap on the nipple and push it on with my thumb pretty hard.
I then do the same to the rest of the loaded cylinders.
Then I seat each cap onto the nipple with a wooden dowl or rest the hammer onto it and push on the hammer(to make sure it is properly seated).
"Seated" is the key word here.
I use CCI #10's on my factory Pietta 1858 nipples.
Use CCI #11's on my ROA and Walker, both having Treso nipples.
Did use #10's on the factory ROA nipples and #11's on the factory Walker nipples
Never have I had a cap come off under recoil on any of these, before or after nipple replacement.
Only reason I installed the Treso's was to go to the smaller flash hole cause the potent loads in the ROA and Walker would blow the hammer back farther then I liked.
Let us know, I can't be the only one with a 100% success rate by firmly seating them with out pinching.
Clarence
From post #21, I will ask again(maybe I missed the answer somewhere down the line ?)
How are you seating the caps onto the nipple ?
Are you just placing them on the nipple ?
Are you pushing them onto the nipple ?
Are you seating them onto the nipple ?
I do all 3 when capping.
I place a cap on the nipple and push it on with my thumb pretty hard.
I then do the same to the rest of the loaded cylinders.
Then I seat each cap onto the nipple with a wooden dowl or rest the hammer onto it and push on the hammer(to make sure it is properly seated).
"Seated" is the key word here.
I use CCI #10's on my factory Pietta 1858 nipples.
Use CCI #11's on my ROA and Walker, both having Treso nipples.
Did use #10's on the factory ROA nipples and #11's on the factory Walker nipples
Never have I had a cap come off under recoil on any of these, before or after nipple replacement.
Only reason I installed the Treso's was to go to the smaller flash hole cause the potent loads in the ROA and Walker would blow the hammer back farther then I liked.
Let us know, I can't be the only one with a 100% success rate by firmly seating them with out pinching.
Clarence
junkman_01
member
Clarence,
You made a VERY good point. So many folks are afraid to seat the caps for fear they will go off. Caps do not go off from pressure. The go off from percussion, after all the are called 'percussion caps'. I have squashed 'em flat in a vice to prove the point.
You made a VERY good point. So many folks are afraid to seat the caps for fear they will go off. Caps do not go off from pressure. The go off from percussion, after all the are called 'percussion caps'. I have squashed 'em flat in a vice to prove the point.
Black Duck Charlie
Member
beag nut, I freely admit that I am new to shooting C&B, so this IS just from my own (limited) experience. The very first pistol I got was a very used Armi San Marco (I think; there is no manufacturer named on the pistol, only "SM" with the proper Italian proof marks) 1858 Remington from a "pawn shop" (it was abused - it had been fired, but wasn't even cleaned before it was sold to the store owner); it wasn't really a pawn shop, more of a third-hand "thrift" store. I cleaned it up, took the cylinder (with nipples installed) to a "professional" to get some caps; this "professional" even told me to use #11 caps. I went out to an out-of-the-way spot I know and blew out the empty chambers with #11 Winchester "Magnum" caps. The first cap had zero problems -- because it was the first to be fired. By the time I got to the fourth cap, they were starting to fall off. Mind you, this was with EMPTY chambers!
I re-seated the remaining caps, making double-sure they really were seated this time. After firing off the remaining caps, I went home, did some reading on the subject of loose caps and took a close look at the nipples: They were ALL deformed, with just the barest hint of mushrooming, likely caused by that previously mentioned abuse. I didn't have to measure the nipples. You may be an engineer -- but I have worked as a machinist in the past, and I know what to look for in a taper. Those #11s didn't fit correctly because they were being expanded by the mushrooming on the end of each nipple. I admit that I didn't know any better before, but I don't know how that "professional" I had talked to missed those deformed nipples....
I have since purchased a new Pietta 1858 Remington, supposedly with nipples designed for use with "#11 caps". Turns out that #10 Remington caps work best with it -- and no #11 cap I was able to try would fit correctly. Shot three cylinders, each chamber loaded with 30 gr. powder and .454 ball, in that pistol, and ZERO caps have fallen out and ZERO caps have been shaken loose by recoil. Oh, and this is with the nipples the cylinders came with.
My point, beag nut, is that although you are an engineer, and there might just be a "better" way of getting caps to stay on the nipples, the most efficient way seems to be to just find the cap/nipple combination that works best for you. By the way, I have already had to remove caps without firing a chamber, so I could put the pistol down "unloaded" (similar to removing the ammo from any other firearm); having some sort of "locking system" to keep caps on nipples, such as you have already described, would make doing that far too difficult and time-consuming for the "average" shooter.
--------------------------------------------
Engineers may be the ones who design things, but it is the mechanics and users of those things who must make them work...........
I re-seated the remaining caps, making double-sure they really were seated this time. After firing off the remaining caps, I went home, did some reading on the subject of loose caps and took a close look at the nipples: They were ALL deformed, with just the barest hint of mushrooming, likely caused by that previously mentioned abuse. I didn't have to measure the nipples. You may be an engineer -- but I have worked as a machinist in the past, and I know what to look for in a taper. Those #11s didn't fit correctly because they were being expanded by the mushrooming on the end of each nipple. I admit that I didn't know any better before, but I don't know how that "professional" I had talked to missed those deformed nipples....
I have since purchased a new Pietta 1858 Remington, supposedly with nipples designed for use with "#11 caps". Turns out that #10 Remington caps work best with it -- and no #11 cap I was able to try would fit correctly. Shot three cylinders, each chamber loaded with 30 gr. powder and .454 ball, in that pistol, and ZERO caps have fallen out and ZERO caps have been shaken loose by recoil. Oh, and this is with the nipples the cylinders came with.
My point, beag nut, is that although you are an engineer, and there might just be a "better" way of getting caps to stay on the nipples, the most efficient way seems to be to just find the cap/nipple combination that works best for you. By the way, I have already had to remove caps without firing a chamber, so I could put the pistol down "unloaded" (similar to removing the ammo from any other firearm); having some sort of "locking system" to keep caps on nipples, such as you have already described, would make doing that far too difficult and time-consuming for the "average" shooter.
--------------------------------------------
Engineers may be the ones who design things, but it is the mechanics and users of those things who must make them work...........
junkman_01
member
I made that same point (find a combo that works) in post #36! He didn't listen then, why would he now?
Armored farmer
Member
#10 caps work perfectly on my Pietta '58. #11 caps need a squeeze, and will still fall off sometimes.
mustanger
Member
beag nut: these guys are not "pie in the skying" they are boots on the ground. They are saying what solved the same problem for them. Key word here is solved. The reason they are relaying thier experiences instead of telling you what to do, is they know there is no hard fast solution. Each gun is an indevidual, with it's own likes and dislikes. Hard to figure, but true. Don't try to over engineer, keep it simple. That's the best. What did the cavelry do? or the civil war guys? They made do with what they had, and lived with it ( hopefully). They didn't have 14 different caps or 14 different nipples to choose from and try. They went with the simplest solution available. They either had a good fit, or they made the caps fit, by sqeezing. So count yourself lucky, you have options.
Black Duck Charlie
Member
Well, junkman 01, I was hoping that with a detailed explanation of what someone else has gone through, maybe beag nut will "see the light". Nothing ventured, nothing gained.....
beag_nut
Member
OK, guys, back off. I have tried everything except the two good ideas from smokin'joe, and that's because they are somewhat dangerous and I want to hear better ideas.
I was a machinist of highly complex, tiny surgical instruments for ten years before "engineerhood", working at the "tenths" (of thousandths) level. Since I didn't spell that out right up front, some figured I didn't know about mechanicals. I do. Very much. I have three patents.
I know that the tapers on nipples are quite similar to the tapers of Luer locks, used in surgical devices, and they work because of the elasticity of the materials being joined. Caps have almost NO elasticity, which is why they fall off tapered nipples. Some are lucky to have their experiences be good enough to suit them. Others pinch their caps (which then won't fit in a capper), while still others use #10 or #11 caps on the same nipples which someone else says doesn't work! Some are contradicting each other, in other words.
I want better ideas. Smokin' joe has a couple of good ideas which I will eventually try, but I resist because of the danger, as I already said, or I initially resisted because it wasn't available to the original users 150 years ago.
If one does not have a logical, different way to solve this "problem", then please don't contribute anything. If your "combo" works for you, even though others have said it won't, then great, but keep it to yourself. If you have designed a better nipple (not an illogical cross-drilled one), let us know, and I may try it, for one.
And stop making judgements about things you don't know.
I was a machinist of highly complex, tiny surgical instruments for ten years before "engineerhood", working at the "tenths" (of thousandths) level. Since I didn't spell that out right up front, some figured I didn't know about mechanicals. I do. Very much. I have three patents.
I know that the tapers on nipples are quite similar to the tapers of Luer locks, used in surgical devices, and they work because of the elasticity of the materials being joined. Caps have almost NO elasticity, which is why they fall off tapered nipples. Some are lucky to have their experiences be good enough to suit them. Others pinch their caps (which then won't fit in a capper), while still others use #10 or #11 caps on the same nipples which someone else says doesn't work! Some are contradicting each other, in other words.
I want better ideas. Smokin' joe has a couple of good ideas which I will eventually try, but I resist because of the danger, as I already said, or I initially resisted because it wasn't available to the original users 150 years ago.
If one does not have a logical, different way to solve this "problem", then please don't contribute anything. If your "combo" works for you, even though others have said it won't, then great, but keep it to yourself. If you have designed a better nipple (not an illogical cross-drilled one), let us know, and I may try it, for one.
And stop making judgements about things you don't know.
Black Duck Charlie
Member
I haven't seen anything where anyone has said "that won't work", but I have seen plenty of people saying "this works for me, as well as others, but not for everyone". And nobody has said that you don't know anything about mechanicals, just that many engineers tend to over-think things.
The difference between a Luer-lok and a C&B nipple/cap combo is the "male" end of the Luer-lok fitting has screw threads built in -- caps and nipples do not. It is not the "elasticity" which keeps the Luer-lok together. You are referring to the Luer-SLIP fittings which are held together by friction. In drill presses, the spindle and the drill head are also held together with a Luer-slip style fitting, and we all know how non-elsatic steel is. If you really want to have caps and nipples that fit together in the same way as Luer-slip fittings, be prepared to pay at least ten times more for the precision-taper molding/forming of the caps.
The difference between a Luer-lok and a C&B nipple/cap combo is the "male" end of the Luer-lok fitting has screw threads built in -- caps and nipples do not. It is not the "elasticity" which keeps the Luer-lok together. You are referring to the Luer-SLIP fittings which are held together by friction. In drill presses, the spindle and the drill head are also held together with a Luer-slip style fitting, and we all know how non-elsatic steel is. If you really want to have caps and nipples that fit together in the same way as Luer-slip fittings, be prepared to pay at least ten times more for the precision-taper molding/forming of the caps.
Pancho
Member
Beag_nut, I've been on this forum for a few years and this problem has been hashed over many times. The root problem is that there really isn't an industry standard for cap dimensions. A couple of years ago one ambitious forum member used an optical comparator to compare the different available caps, the conclusion was that there was no comparison. Even if one were to design a new idea for a nipple such as a knurled one, they would have to pick a particular cap and manufacturer to build to.
I don't know about Treso but I know that TOW SS nipples are built to CCI #11 caps. I know this because I was able to talk to the machinist that designed and made them and he told me that he designed to CCI's standard. It just took a phone call.
To conclude, I believe like TOW, Treso used some cap and manufacturer as a standard to design to. If you can't contact Treso to find out then it's up to you to find out by trying every cap available or buy some nipples made by TOW.
I don't know about Treso but I know that TOW SS nipples are built to CCI #11 caps. I know this because I was able to talk to the machinist that designed and made them and he told me that he designed to CCI's standard. It just took a phone call.
To conclude, I believe like TOW, Treso used some cap and manufacturer as a standard to design to. If you can't contact Treso to find out then it's up to you to find out by trying every cap available or buy some nipples made by TOW.
beag_nut
Member
Charlie:
Steel is one of the MOST elastic of all solids; look it up. IV's do not use the locking type of Luer, nor is the locking type used when it isn't necc. Again, the caps are not elastic.
Steel is one of the MOST elastic of all solids; look it up. IV's do not use the locking type of Luer, nor is the locking type used when it isn't necc. Again, the caps are not elastic.
Fingers McGee
Member
The 'percussin' system has been around for around 200 years; percussion revolvers for 175. Countless individuals have tried to improve on the system with varying degrees of success. I'm afraid beag_nut is looking for something that does not exist.
Signing off
Signing off
Black Duck Charlie
Member
beag nut, the 1 1/2 inch diameter spindle and drill head are NOT at all very elastic. They are far less elastic than any cap used in any C&B gun. When steel stretches -- it tends to not return to its original dimensions. I'm referring to real-world properties, not engineering theories/applications.
Treso nipples and #10 Remington caps are hard to beat in fact #10 Remington caps even fit my Pietta nipples good. If #10 CCI caps too big for your new Treso nipples send them back. I like Remington #10s the best but they cost 8.00 a hundred were i live and i can get #11 CCIs 5.00. I shoot a lot so i buy CCI 11s. I re size them with a pair of dollar store wire cutters with a hole drilled in them. It works good for me lets me use a capper. I don't have to pinch the caps before i put them on anymore. I also like Smokein Joes idea i am going to try it.
- Status
