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LOOSE ROUNDS, WEBLEY .455 MK VI 265GR FMJ IN CLEAR BALLISTICS GEL.

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by 5pins, Apr 7, 2020.

  1. 5pins

    5pins Member

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    waidmann, 1KPerDay, Chompiras and 6 others like this.
  2. Pat Riot
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    Pat Riot Contributing Member

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    Thank you. :thumbup:

    I was looking for the photo of the gel block. Is it linked in the article? I didn’t see it but I am using an iPhone so I may have missed the link.
     
  3. 5pins

    5pins Member

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    I don't have a pic of the gel block. I don't typically take them because they don't seem to turn out very well.
     
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  4. Pat Riot
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    Pat Riot Contributing Member

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    Ah, I see. Thanks.
     
  5. .455_Hunter

    .455_Hunter Member

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    Very nice! Thank you!

    Looks like it meets FBI protocol almost perfectly.

    A few curious thoughts...

    The velocity seems a bit low compared to nominal for 265 gr lead loadings (a bit over 600 fps). I wonder if they used the same charge and the additional force required to swage the FMJ thorough the MK VI's tight throat and barrel drag reduced performance. Also, being almost 80 years old could have caused degraded performance too.

    A comparison to a vintage Kynoch and a current Fiocchi lead loads would be very interesting in exactly the same set-up.

    Thanks again!
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2020
  6. .455_Hunter

    .455_Hunter Member

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    Some additional data from another posting...

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/455-webley-gel-penetration-by-proxy.846854/

    In his review of the Charter Bulldog XL in .45 Colt, Patrick Sweeney does a Clear Ballistic synthetic gel test with the Hornady Cowboy 255 gr lead round nose at just over 600 fps- a very good surrogate for .455 Webley MK II 262 / 265 gr loadings. He achieved 22 inches of penetration!

    Looks right in line with 5pins findings, just 50 fps more velocity giving 4 inches more penetration with a roughly equivalent bullet.
     
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  7. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    Thank you for the test and the evidence of lethality of the 455 in ballistic gel. I have a Webley that was converted to 45ACP

    7AL4LAI.jpg

    and found, early on, that standard 45ACP loads will stretch the top strap! I kept on downloading .454 diameter 255 LSWC's till everything seemed OK

    Code:
    455 Webley MkVI   rechambered 45ACP  
    
     manufactured Enfield 1923 
    
    255 LSWC  (.454)   3.5 grs Bullseye  thrown, R-P AR cases, CCI300 primers
    Jun-Aug 02          T = ? °F               
    
    Ave Vel =541
    Std Dev =10
    ES =42.44
    Low =522
    High =565
    N =24
    
     Shot to point of aim 25.0 yards
    
    255 LSWC  (.454)  4.0 grs Bullseye  thrown, R-P AR cases, CCI300 primers
     20-Jan-02 T = 42 °F 
    
    Ave Vel =640
    Std Dev =21
    ES = 79.1
    Low = 586
    High = 665
    N = 12  
    
     Shot to point of aim 25.0 yards   

    Based on your data, maybe I ought to use the 3.5 grs Bullseye load. I think the British were on to something. They were not looking for the maximum load, they were looking for the minimum lethal load, and the 455 Webley is a very soft shooting round in the Mark VI. Based on the penetration you show, the round will traverse a standard human torso.

    Accuracy out of my pistol is basically 12 inches at 25 yards. The conversion was sloppy, the outfit that did it just drilled straight through the cylinders. I would like to find a source for 455 Webley cylinders and remove the 45 AR cylinder.
     
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  8. mokin

    mokin Member

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    Thanks for posting that. I've been impressed by those cartridges ever since I got to handle one that was in a collection I saw when Reagan was president. That cartridge kind of redefines "big and slow".
     
  9. golden

    golden Member

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    I did not see evidence of the rounds effectiveness there, just that is could overpenetrate.

    Jim
     
  10. Chompiras

    Chompiras Member

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    Thank you for this test. As for the velocity, I do'nt believe that it is too far off for the time. The 1914/1921 spec for the type II round was 5.5gr ov type I cordite for 580 +-30fps. This is a reduction from the 6.25gr 1900 spec, which was a further reduction from the original 7.5gr said to give 700fps. The modern 262gr fiocchi loading is said to be around 620fps.
     
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  11. .455_Hunter

    .455_Hunter Member

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    The evidence is that the .455 served for nearly 60 years of front line service in innumerable conflicts around the globe. I have never seen a complaint about it's "stopping power", unlike many other service rounds.

    It's interesting to see what that performance equilibrates to in standardized ballistics testing media.
     
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  12. golden

    golden Member

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    hunter,

    What law enforcement agency issues .45 caliber non-expanding ammo? The U.S. Marines were buying .45ACP COLT pistols and then decided to replace them with GLOCKS and now the SIG M-18.
    Since the Russians used the 9x18 Makarov round for at least 50 years, can we conclude it worked?

    Jim
     
  13. .455_Hunter

    .455_Hunter Member

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    I am confused. How does any of that info dump have any impact on the real performance of the .455 in the 1880's to 1940's?

    No one is the suggesting the .455 should be a top US LEO cartridge in 2020. I guess I should have kept my tounge in cheek comment about the FBI protocol to myself- Was the concept of "overpenetration" even a "thing" in the Victorian era? Also, no one is suggesting that MARSOC should order new Webley MK VIs instead of a variety of semi-auto platforms. I guess the silly British should have had the forethought to adopt a high-capacity polystriker autoloader with high velocity JHP projectiles in 1888. How stupid of them to do anything else.

    The .455 Webley had a very good reputation for combat effectiveness, and was developed in the era where the highly motivated indigenous opposition was eagerly looking to make you intimately familiar with their variety of edged and spear weapons, a completely different environment from the Makarov's domain in the Cold War.

    The OP's testing has provided a bit of quantification of the .455's past performance. You can marginalize it if you want, but that doesn't change history, regardless of personal bias.

    Using a similar thought process, I guess since the Army currently uses 7.62 and 5.56mm platform weapons that completely outclass the .58 cal muzzleloaders of Civil War, the tens of thousands of men killed by Minie balls in that conflict should take comfort that they were felled by "ineffective" weapons. Maybe CNN or MSNBC can interview them?
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2020
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  14. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    I read most of the book "Gunshot Injuries" by Col Louis La Garde. He was one of the wound specialists in the US Army before the adoption of the 45ACP round. He took part in the animal shootings that lead to the 45 ACP round. His background and gun shot experience was vast and recorded in this book What I did find very interesting, Col La Garde would have been eleven when the American Civil War started, and he was able to examine survivors throughout his career, and the bone specimens stored at the Army Medical College. He claimed that the service rounds around 1910ish, that is the 303 Brit, 30-06, 8mm Mauser, etc, were inferior in wounding and lethality to Civil War projectiles! (Particularly if they hit bone, those huge, soft lead bullets would mush and continue going!)

    That might have been due to the adoption of the Geneva Conventions, which if you trace the history, the bullet section was adopted to embarrass the British. The first 303 FMJ bullets were inferior to the old lead 450 Martini bullets, but lead tipped 303 Brit bullets did a fantastic job on the natives. Germans, Irish separatists and Liberals tag teamed to show how horrible and inhuman the British were, and the political fall out, was less effective bullets!

    The 455 Webley was developed after vast experience with Natives armed with swords and spears, sometimes wearing chain mail, sometimes hippopotamus armor. Don't laugh, the British had frequent failures with their edged weapons, designed against wool clad Europeans, when used against chain mail and hippopotamus armor. I believe the British were looking for the minimum round, low recoil, fast recovery, and short range, and the 455 Webley satisfied that role well. The 455 Webley was not made to shoot buffalo, elephants, or dinosaurs!
     
  15. golden

    golden Member

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    While the information on hippo armor was very interesting, the point is that the bullet looks like it is unfired and their is not information or photos for the gel block, so why even do it?

    And hunter, I am not surprised you are confused. I note you did not address the Russian use of the MAKAROV round. You did say being used for 60 years was proof of effectiveness did you not?

    Jim
     
  16. .455_Hunter

    .455_Hunter Member

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    The Soviets must have found it adequate for their needs, as it was adopted and used in an ENTIRELY different application than the developmental and early usage of the .455. Comparisons between the two are a bit stretched.
     
  17. Goosey

    Goosey Member

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    If it penetrates 18 inches of gelatin it will work. I don't believe in any kind of mythical big-bore knockdown power from such a low-powered round though. 9mm ball would be just as effective.
     
  18. Nuclear

    Nuclear Member

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    Large caliber, heavy, soft lead, slow moving (all of these by modern standards) will do a LOT of damage to a person or animal.
     
  19. Goosey

    Goosey Member

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    This is true. But so will a small caliber, light, jacketed, fast moving bullet.

    Here are some relevant passages on the topic. Which mirrors the general advice you will hear today!

    4CAE4xV.png
     
  20. Nuclear

    Nuclear Member

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    All that proves is that handguns suck at stopping perps.

    Soft lead expands at very low velocities, and was outlawed for war because of the wounds it produces. If you push soft lead too fast, it leads the barrels in just a few shots. To get the same terminal performance out of FMJ you have to drive them at those higher velocities. If you drive large, heavy, bullets fast, the recoil is difficult to manage, and requires a heavy framed gun. So you go to smaller, lighter bullets going faster to get the same terminal performance, while allowing a lighter sidearm.
     
  21. swg1

    swg1 Member

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    Thanks for posting these results. Very interesting, especially those nyclads you tested at one time. I look forward to more.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2020
  22. C-grunt

    C-grunt Member

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    How is a 45 caliber projectile going completely through you considered not effective?

    That really isnt very far off of standard 45 ACP ball ammo performance and we all know it's effective.
     
  23. WVGunman

    WVGunman Member

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    I thought "overpenetration" was a moot point in a military weapon. If it goes right through and hits another person on the other side, well, HE'S a bad guy too, right? This isn't shooting some burglar in your wood-framed house. There is nobody in the direction you're shooting whom you WANT to live, presumably.

    I'm kind of amazed at the penetration here too. A ~1/2 inch hole leaking blood on one side where the bullet entered and another on the other side where it left would give anyone a bad day.
     
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