Love new shockwave… toy or serious arm?

[hso]

3. No mention of the FBI's standard for minimum penetration (12 inches?) in ballistic gelatin.

They're using standard 16" gel and they repeatedly refer to penetration wrt 12 inches. They also state "Our ballistic test medium is Clear Ballistics synthetic gel placed 10 feet away with an FBI-style four-layer heavy clothing barrier." I think they're just not being pedantic. What is important is that they're consistent in their testing and they use the same materials as the FBI standard.

1. The Aguila 12 gauge slug mini-shell was not tested but readily available at the time of the video.

Agreed. I have the Aguila mini slugs and wonder if there's any difference between the Federal and the Aguila. I'm not sure it matters though since the slugs are close to identical, but the velocity reallllly matters.

2. No mention of modified or full chokes when discussing shot patterns.

"They also make a 20-inch version with choke tubes and ghost ring sights – that one holds 13 mini shells."

The important lesson is the spread on the shot. Some folks think spread is an advantage, but when using a Shockwave spread isn't your friend.

 

[drobs]

They're using standard 16" gel and they repeatedly refer to penetration wrt 12 inches. They also state "Our ballistic test medium is Clear Ballistics synthetic gel placed 10 feet away with an FBI-style four-layer heavy clothing barrier." I think they're just not being pedantic. What is important is that they're consistent in their testing and they use the same materials as the FBI standard.



Agreed. I have the Aguila mini slugs and wonder if there's any difference between the Federal and the Aguila. I'm not sure it matters though since the slugs are close to identical, but the velocity reallllly matters.


"They also make a 20-inch version with choke tubes and ghost ring sights – that one holds 13 mini shells."

The important lesson is the spread on the shot. Some folks think spread is an advantage, but when using a Shockwave spread isn't your friend.

Since you are splitting hairs, No where did they clearly state that 12 inched is the minimum FBI penetration requirement for defensive ammo. Go read it / watch it again.

They might've alluded to it with this statement: "Most #00 loads travel 20 inches or more in gelatin. That’s actually more penetration than we really need. But 9-11 inches is definitely on the shallow side for a defensive buckshot."

While they did mention the 590 comes with chokes, they didn't mention what the purpose of a choke is for - controlling the spread of a shot pattern at greater distances. If a tight pattern is what the reviewer was after, a modified or full choke most likely would've met his requirement.

As far as I know, the Shockwave is not offered with interchangeable chokes. But then again the video had nothing to do with the Shockwave.

 

[vanfunk]

OP here. I don’t see a use for the shockwave outside of 15 yards, personally. BUT, at 15 yards mine will put all pellets into a 7-8” circle. Good enough.

 

[PapaG]

I built up one like that from an 870 about 1980 or so with the Pachmayr Vindicator stock set. An adapter to use the rubber pistol grip that was designed for the Contender and a rubber forend. I had to use an 18" riot barrel to stay legal (18" 26 overall). Didn't much care for it. With a mag extension it held 8 rounds.
All that said, it was an "across the room" type gun. I went back to the wood stock and cob forend. Pachmayr stuff has been sitting in the parts tub for thirty years or more. I think in Illinois it will probably become illegal.

 

[drobs]

I built up one like that from an 870 about 1980 or so with the Pachmayr Vindicator stock set. An adapter to use the rubber pistol grip that was designed for the Contender and a rubber forend. I had to use an 18" riot barrel to stay legal (18" 26 overall). Didn't much care for it. With a mag extension it held 8 rounds.
All that said, it was an "across the room" type gun. I went back to the wood stock and cob forend. Pachmayr stuff has been sitting in the parts tub for thirty years or more. I think in Illinois it will probably become illegal.

The birdshead grip on the Mossberg Shockwave really helps with recoil. That birdshead shotgun grip has been around for 20 years or more. Mossberg made it famous.

When I was younger I tried shooting a 12 gauge 18 inch barrel Mossberg Camper shotgun with their hard plastic standard pistol grip. Oh that was a lesson in of it's self. Painful!!!

 

[N555]

Oh it's very serious. I have been running my 13 inch Winchester with a full stock since like 2008.

 

[Gordon]

The birdshead grip on the Mossberg Shockwave really helps with recoil. That birdshead shotgun grip has been around for 20 years or more. Mossberg made it famous.

When I was younger I tried shooting a 12 gauge 18 inch barrel Mossberg Camper shotgun with their hard plastic standard pistol grip. Oh that was a lesson in of it's self. Painful!!!

I have a Ithaca Stake out 13" 20 gauge pistol grip ULtra lightweight( 4 pounds with 13" barrel in 20 ga.) that I had to register as an SBS , even tho it was originally sold as an AOW to Las Vegas PD who I bought the pistol gripped barrel less receiver from as a "firearm" in an auction and put on a wood stock and 25" DeerSlayer barrel for my wife's use later . Dog Town Tom convinced me it must be SBS after that and I agreed and got an original 13" barrel and form 1 registered it as an SBS . It now has a Olight Baldor S light/ Blue Lazer on it and seems like it might be handy around the ranch home with #2 Buckshot .
I started experimenting with pistol gripped 12 gauge Remington 870 police 18" guns in late 70s with the metal overfolder stocks. They were brutal but I kept after mastery of them with thousands of rounds on pepper poppers I had placed in an old adobe shoot house my friend and I built. After ten years of that in 80s and later ten years of qualfying in PD reserves with one in 90s I came to the conclusions in Louis Awerbuck classes in 2000s for another ten years it was NOT the way to go for serious shotgun defense, but was a niche gun like a snub revolver is compared to a combat pistol. I did buy a Remington TAC 14" 870 12ga. AOW cheaply a few years ago and it too now wears an Olight Baldor light Green lazer . I didn't fool with it much asI had my fill, but my son does tho and uses reduced velocity Fiocchi 00 buck loads in it . Gabe Suarez thinks these are great tucked into between the right hand drivers seat edge and console for those who have concealed carry permits (like we do in Oregon) and make more sense than a SBR AR15 for such purpose. I believe he is probably correct and magazine restrictions don't apply. Also they are pyshchologically disconcerting to attackers close up , there is centuries of proof this is true on this. All most all LEGAL defense is close up so there you have it .



Here is my journey in more detail from a couple years ago before I NFA SBS ed the Stake out :

My weird Ithaca Stake Out 20 ga

For back ground I bought this Model 87 Ultralight Ithaca 20 gauge from a Las Vegas police auction with out the 13" barrel it was built with as an " other firearm" years ago. The serial # has an HG suffix which means it was a Stakeout AOW pistol when built. After consulting with experts on the...

www.thehighroad.org

For the Record : The 870 Remington "Witness Protection" Scatter Gun Technology was first to "mass produce " the AOW with that form of butt stock for the US Marshall Service in 1980s. I think Tim La France first built a few maybe around 1979 era . Before that SBS were vertical pistol grips mostly.

If we could afford such luxury for one this would be the way to go on the TAC 14" https://vangcomp.com/product/sentinel-barrel-870-14/

 

[Boom Vang]

Learn how to shoot it "cheekweld method" like this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP6IZxhs9So

With the lower recoiling "shorty" shells, you can probably get away with that cheekweld method in the Shockwave. I wouldn't recommend it with standard 2-3/4" loads, even with target loads your cheek will get battered.

In fact, for the <10 yard engagement ranges possible with the Shockwave, the shorty shell version probably makes the most sense.

Here's a good article on the defensive shockwave

Training the Shockwave

 

[goon]

My experience with the shockwave is limited to trying out a friend’s with some birdshot and buckshot last year. In terms of cool, few non-NFA guns are as cool as the shockwave. But I was surprised at how lively the recoil is even with low brass birdshot. I can’t imagine that I could get good enough with one for defense when I compare it with a standard pump action 12. That’s just my opinion though.

 

[12Bravo20]

I was taught to use the Push/Pull method when shooting firearms like the Shockwave. I was even taught the same method for shooting the H&K MP5 pistol. The method works well.

 

[357 Terms]

I like mine.
I added a Defender Tactical light mount.
600 lumen mini light.
Defender Tactical grip.
FO front sight.
And metal safety.
It's loaded with Federal mini (OPSol adapter) 4 buck.
Handy lil blaster. I have no doubt it would be effective within 100ft, definitely better than a handgun for home defense.

 

[Riomouse911]

I have a Ithaca Stake out 13" 20 gauge pistol grip ULtra lightweight( 4 pounds with 13" barrel in 20 ga.) that I had to register as an SBS , even tho it was originally sold as an AOW to Las Vegas PD who I bought the pistol gripped barrel less receiver from as a "firearm" in an auction and put on a wood stock and 25" DeerSlayer barrel for my wife's use later . Dog Town Tom convinced me it must be SBS after that and I agreed and got an original 13" barrel and form 1 registered it as an SBS . It now has a Olight Baldor S light/ Blue Lazer on it and seems like it might be handy around the ranch home with #2 Buckshot .
I started experimenting with pistol gripped 12 gauge Remington 870 police 18" guns in late 70s with the metal overfolder stocks. They were brutal but I kept after mastery of them with thousands of rounds on pepper poppers I had placed in an old adobe shoot house my friend and I built. After ten years of that in 80s and later ten years of qualfying in PD reserves with one in 90s I came to the conclusions in Louis Awerbuck classes in 2000s for another ten years it was NOT the way to go for serious shotgun defense, but was a niche gun like a snub revolver is compared to a combat pistol. I did buy a Remington TAC 14" 870 12ga. AOW cheaply a few years ago and it too now wears an Olight Baldor light Green lazer . I didn't fool with it much asI had my fill, but my son does tho and uses reduced velocity Fiocchi 00 buck loads in it . Gabe Suarez thinks these are great tucked into between the right hand drivers seat edge and console for those who have concealed carry permits (like we do in Oregon) and make more sense than a SBR AR15 for such purpose. I believe he is probably correct and magazine restrictions don't apply. Also they are pyshchologically disconcerting to attackers close up , there is centuries of proof this is true on this. All most all LEGAL defense is close up so there you have it .



Here is my journey in more detail from a couple years ago before I NFA SBS ed the Stake out :

My weird Ithaca Stake Out 20 ga

For back ground I bought this Model 87 Ultralight Ithaca 20 gauge from a Las Vegas police auction with out the 13" barrel it was built with as an " other firearm" years ago. The serial # has an HG suffix which means it was a Stakeout AOW pistol when built. After consulting with experts on the...

www.thehighroad.org

For the Record : The 870 Remington "Witness Protection" Scatter Gun Technology was first to "mass produce " the AOW with that form of butt stock for the US Marshall Service in 1980s. I think Tim La France first built a few maybe around 1979 era . Before that SBS were vertical pistol grips mostly.

View attachment 1186238 If we could afford such luxury for one this would be the way to go on the TAC 14" https://vangcomp.com/product/sentinel-barrel-870-14/

I carried one of those steel overfolding stocks on my very first witness protection detail back around 1994. We were guarding a Vietnamese gang member rolling on others who killed two and shot 7 others at a high-dollar suburban house party with an AK. (The accomplice was showing detectives where the shooters and others involved lived for later warrants.)

9 Youths Shot at Party Near Los Angeles (Published 1994)

www.nytimes.com

That shotgun was AWFUL. I havent yet fired a Shockwave, but they can’t be any worse than those old cheekbone bruisers were!

Stay safe.

 

[Hillbilly Hydrographics]

Friends kept getting the Shockwaves and tac14 short shotties. And being a shotgun junkie kept saying I need one. Then the RIA vrpf14 12 gauge came out so I jumped on it. They definitely take some practice and alot of shooting to get used to compared to a standard stocked shotgun. I've ran couple hundred rounds through her from birdshot to slugs so far and I like it. It's on my wall in bedroom with the 5 round mag loaded with 00buck and a spare 9 round mag next to it with 00buck. Here she is when I first brought her home from the ffl.

 

[TTv2]

For home defense you don't need the buttstock, but I don't think the recoil is easy to work with for most people, so my opinion is .410 is the way to go for the Shockwave. I know people think it's puny and incapable, but just because something is less powerful doesn't mean it's incapable as every test of 000 Buck .410 I've seen meets penetration spec.
Now, for the few people who are avid and serious with training the 12 or 20 gauge Shockwaves are the right choice for them. For most people, they're not.

 

[12Bravo20]

My personal testing has shown 3" 410 buckshot loads to work well for self defense, especially at in the home distances.

 

[vanfunk]

Thanks for the ongoing discussion and the exploration of other similar platforms. I spent about an hour yesterday shooting the shockwave with both Federal and Aguila minishells. The Federal was the 6-ball 00 buck and the Aguila was their hybrid #4 and #1 buck offering. I’ve not yet been able to find any slugs. Now that I’m used to it, I’ve found that the “firearm” is easy to control and that, barring a laser, the “shockwave cheekweld” is the way to go to improve hit probability. I have a tendency to shoot quite high if I don’t take deliberate aim down the stubby barrel. I found it exceedingly easy to keep centered hits on a silhouette target out to 20 yards, though the patterns were a bit too wide for my liking at the 20 yard mark. At 15, though, the patterns were around 8” and looked pretty nasty.

Recoil, or lack of it, makes follow up shots really fast. The 590S action is not the smoothest but I know it will get buttery with use. I am going to stick with the minishells for now as they work well in the action and are just so easy. Eventually I’ll throw some 2 3/4” low-recoil buck through it to see how it does. As a bonus, my 13-year-old daughter put about 20 rounds through it with no problem, and thought it was “bad ass.” I told her it was pretty bad ass that she could handle a 14” barreled 12 gauge so well.

So is it just a toy? No, definitely not. It IS really fun to shoot, but it’s also reliable, accurate and powerful enough for close quarters defense for sure. It won’t supplant my M4 but it’s really darn good. Now what I’d really like to see is my wife using it; she’d be formidable with 9 00 shells ready to go if the devil’s at the door.

 

[12Bravo20]

I suggest trying the push/pull method along side the cheek weld method to see which one works best for you. I was taught the push/pull method and it works well for me.

 

[Gordon]

Actually a well set up single point sling with a push against the sling strap to use the sight works best for me and my son. The length should be just long enough to get a bend in your strong side (pistol handle) elbow at full extension which will let the grip be at waist high and barrel fall to about the knee or a little lower when you let it loose on the sling.

 

[vanfunk]

Update:

I like this thing enough to have added a metal safety and a Holosun red dot to it. The dot improves speed and hit probability considerably, and the high mount brings it up to firing position quickly. It’s serious AND fun!

 

[12Bravo20]

I added a red dot to my 410 Shockwave and love it. I went with a circle dot reticle.

 

[luv2safari]

Well...I think it's more of a toy and less of a weapon that can be handled well by the average individual.

Recovery from recoil has to be awful, even with mini shells, and it requires use of both hands. These are big handicaps for Mr. Homeowner, especially recoil recovery.

But, they look like a lot of fun as a toy...as much as a barrel full of cheerleaders!

 

[vanfunk]

I gotta tell ya, I was positively cringing the first time I pulled the trigger. I girded my loins, closed my eyes, and… bang. Wha? Where’s the sturm und drang? The calamity? Nowhere. Sure, it kicks, but it’s nowhere near as bad as many might think (I sure did). With minishells, it’s scarcely more than a .22, seriously. My 13 year old daughter has absolutely no problem with it, and giggles when she’s firing it. Know that I/we are not Neanderthals. I’m 6’1, 190 lbs and have advanced arthritis pretty much everywhere. It’s as fast (or almost, not quite but close) as any other pump shotgun, IMO. It definitely has utility.

 

[12Bravo20]

A pistol grip only shotgun will have more felt recoil than the Shockwave with its bird head grip. This type of firearm does have its place and works as intended. The Shockwave isn't for everyone. But don't know them until you have tried one and also used the proper technique (s) to shoot one. Shooting from the hip is the least accurate way to shoot one and I am not a big fan of holding one up to your face either. I'll go ahead and sound like a broken record again. One should use the Push/Pull method when shooting the Shockwave. That is the method taught by the US Marshals and US Military.

 

[Sistema1927]

I put the Laserlyte Center Mass on my original Shockwave and also use the Opsol. I can shoot accurately from the hip with the mini-shells.

 

[vanfunk]

5 shots of the Aguila buckshot (4 #1 pellets, 7 #4 pellets) minishells at 15 yards from the Shockwave. The target’s 12”. This is with the push-pull technique and a chest-high hold, but not the full-on birdshead grip to the face method. The red dot is brilliant on this thing. I’ll try the Federal #4 buck after that; I haven’t been able to find any mini slugs yet. Oh, the advertised velocity is 1200 fps for these. I got 1138 fps average until I managed to whack one of my skyscreen supports with a ball or two.