Low recoil defense loads for the .308

[Bigfoot]

The last '308 for HD' thread had so many off-topic posts that I wouldn't even post in it. This thread is about the use use of lighter bullets and reduced velocities for the .308 for HD at short ranges.

No 12 ga, no 7.62x39, no pistol caliber, no over-penetration gak. NOTHING ELSE.

Thank you.


With that said, the .308 MBR should make a great HD rifle because of the huge variety of bullets available in the caliber. I'd like to discuss those bullets/loads and how well they might work for short range HD. For the lighter recoil loadings a rifle with an adjustable gas system like the FAL or RFB would be best. I want a load that frags well, penetrates 12"+ and recoils as little as possible for fast recovery.

The only 110 grain defense loading that I know of uses the 110 grain V-Max. In the TAP loading it doesn't penetrate enough so it's out. If it was loaded to lower velocities would it perform better?

There are other 110s like the Hornady and Speer Spire Points. I believe they might be a bit stiffer than the V-Max.

I'd prefer something 125 grains and above though.

The Ballistic Tip works well depending on who you listen to. This tester likes it http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/conte..._barrel/gelatin_308_125gr_nosler_bal_tip.html This tester doesn't, go figure http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000963#000001 Notice that the second tester didn't like it either from a 7.62x39 at 2174 fps or from a .308 at 2847.

Cor-Bon has a 125 HP defense load at 3150 that looks suspiciously like the Speer TNT bullet. http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=374436&t=11082005 . Assuming that it is the 125 gr TNT I have a good feeling about this bullet. I'd like to know how it performs at that high velocity, and how it might perform at say 2500-2800.

I've also seen a Cor-Bon 130 HP defence loading listed, again I suspect that it's the Speer bullet. I don't think Cor-Bon still loads it but let's throw that bullet into the mix also. It has a larger HP opening than the 125 TNT. I suspect that it uses the same jacket as the 150, if so than the stiffer jacket would explain the larger HP.

The Bergers? The Berger VLDs penetrate an inch or so and frag very well. The lighter weight Bergers arn't VLD profiles so I don't know how they perform.

The all time SD champ in .308 is the 155 A-MAX. http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/conte...in_barrel/gelatin_308_155gr_hornady_amax.html I've read (online so who knows the validity) that it still frags down to 2400 fps. I'd like to nail that velocity down. It could be loaded to 100-200 fps faster than the minimum frag velocity for reduced recoil.

There are my loading ideas. Any on-topic suggestions?

Why a .308 MBR for HD? Because it can also be loaded back up and used for hog hunting. And because I want to.

 

[41 Mag]

IF your going to be doing any testing you might give the Speer # 1835 - 110gr JHP a look as well. I haven't shot any from an auto but have from a bolt and pistol and they did a fine job on small game. At least as good or better than the BT did. However for an auto loader the BT might be a better choice for feeding.

If you want the latest out go with the MPG™ Multi-Purpose Green™ Bullets from Barnes in 140grs. For more info on it here is the link, scroll to the bottom of the page,
http://www.barnesbullets.com/resources/newsletters/bullet-n-archive/november-2007-barnes-bullet-n/

 

[The Wiry Irishman]

Here's something interesting I ran across:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/110 grain Sierra Varminter.html

Its an inch short of your penetration requirements, but the fragmentation is pretty impressive. It seems it was handloaded pretty hot, though, so maybe a lighter load would get you that extra inch. Still a 110gr, though.

 

[Slamfire]

A shooting bud of mine, who recently received his Distinguished using the M1a, regularly shoots 125 gr Sierra bullets through his rifle, at 200 yards. These are the standing and sitting rapid fire stages. He does this because of the reduced recoil.

Premium hunting bullets, like these Sierra bullets, are more accurate than hunting bullets used to be, at least 20 years ago.

I do not know his load, but I do know he only uses IMR 4895, and that powder is my preferred powder in the 308, gas gun or bolt gun.

I have shot reduced loads of 168's in my M1a and found that when velocities dropped below 2400 fps, the accuracy was poor.

Service rifles will shoot "best" with the ammunition of their parent country, or with reloads that are close in bullet weight and velocity of the original service load.

 

[W.E.G.]

So, I suppose a 7.62 x 39 / 12 gauge over/under wouldn't interest you?

They sure are handy.


I shot a bunch of 125's and 123 .311's in my FAL.

They all went bang, and cycled the action.

I think anything you shoot with one of them bullets aroun' the house is gonna be dun-fer.

.30 caliber fired in the kitchen is mondo loud. AMHIK.

 

[rcmodel]

Any 110 grain .30 caliber bullet made is, at heart, a varmint bullet.
(Well, O.K., not those FMJ for the .30 carbine, or whatnot.

But the 110 V-Max, Nosler B-T, Speer SP, etc. are all designed and perform as varmint bullets.

With that said, any two-legged varmint you shoot with one out of a .308 will pretty much end up in the same condition.
DRT & SOTW!

Dead Right There & Splattered On The Wall!


rcmodel

 

[HorseSoldier]

Prevailing professional opinions seem to lean towards thinking the 110 grain TAP is more than acceptable for anti-personnel work.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

No 12 ga, no 7.62x39, no pistol caliber, no over-penetration gak. NOTHING ELSE.

I think the original poster made his topic pretty clear. If you feel a need to discuss some other topic, particularly one of those listed, please start your own thread (or better still, revive one of the several hundred threads already in existence.)

If you notice your post missing from this thread, it is because it didn't appear to stay within the narrow topic guidelines requested by the OP.

 

[trstafford]

Accelerators

Since it is for home defense have you considered an accelerator round. 22 caliber in a sabot to allow shooting in a 308

 

[Zak Smith]

If it were me, I'd use H4895 or IMR4895, and just modify the load until I got to the desired FPS and the gun operated reliably in a range of conditions.

 

[hamourkiller]

Once you pick a round, I would suggest that you go hog hunting and shoot some pigs with it. Pigs range from light to 300 lbs or so in the wild. I would want a round which has enough penetration to kill the 200 to 300 pound class of animal. In seeking to avoid over penetration you do not want to get under penetration in a self defense situation.

Still it stands to reason that any modern soft nosed bullet in the 125gr class @ 3000/3200 FPS will jelly the internals of any intruder with out too much over penetration.

 

[Infomet]

I have near zero qualifications to discuss this, but do have some shooting experience. Are you talking about a home situation? Do you have neighbors? I'd hate to release anything at 2500-3000 ft/sec where there are other people. I'd consider it negligent, in fact.

How about the technology used by the air marshalls. Supposedly, their bullets won't penetrate an airplane skin. That should leave people behind some siding and sheetrock fairly safe.

It seems to me that if you have time and space to use a rifle you have a good chance at a second shot and two of most anything should put a hurt on most anyone.

So why not go for a heavy bullet to get momentum (energy) and frag thechnology to help protect the uninvolved? The minnie ball was pretty damaging and didn't even frag, as far as I know. We don't need range for this, so velocity can be very low, if minimum energy is retained.

 

[Bigfoot]

I shot a bunch of 125's and 123 .311's in my FAL.

I hadn't considered that. The .310 cal 123 gr. V-MAX did real well in Brass Fetchers test. That would work all right, with the lower charge the high pressure from the oversize bullet wouldnt matter. Interesting.

I found a new bullet, the new 135 gr SMK. I remember reading that terminal performance with 308 cal SMKs depended on the HP size, I'd have to research that again. Sometimes they worked great, sometimes they yawed late, and sometimes they tumbled and didn't break at all.

After rereading some 155 AMAX test results I was reminded just how perfectly it performed so I'm inclined to load it to 2500-2600, basically 300 Savage velocity and see how well they function. It won't be the lightest recoiling but it's the safest bet.

I've only recently decided on a 308 MBR. I own an 06, a couple of 5.56s, a couple of 7.62x39s and of course a 12 ga. I'm looking at the 308 because I want another rifle and I want it to be a jack-of-all-trades gun. The gun that you shoot the most, are most comfortable with and the one that gets grabbed first. Yes I'll load 165 Partitions or TSXs for the hogs and elk. Some generic 150s for deer. Maybe some 110 VMAXs for light recoil practice. Load them all at similar velocities and the trajectory should be close.

Great responses.....with some help from the Mods. I thank you all.

 

[Bigfoot]

I was supposed to be cutting and stacking firewood yesterday but got rained out, too bad. So I spent several hours reading about powders for reduced recoil. With Blue Dot and SR 4759 the 125s will beat the velocity of the 7.62x39 and recoil about the same.

The same powders with 110s will recoil even less. They should penetrate enough when launched several hundred fps slower than full power loads. A 110 grain V-Max launched at 2500-2700, sound familiar 6.8SPC shooters?

Apparently the Remington Managed Recoil load uses IMR 4198 powder. It pushes a 125 to 2650, it's a bonded deer hunting bullet though.

The Speer 130 HP frags completely on deer with 12" penetration when shot from an 06. The gunwriter Ralph T. Walker used to swear by it. If the bullet is launched at 2400-2500 it still frags but now it exits deer. Definitely worth a try.

Cor-Bon loads the Speer 125 TNT in 7.62x39 as well as the 308. In the 7.62x39 loading it doesn't frag very well, strange. However you should see it on milk jugs after drilling out the HP a little. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUUSk_mDlow Oh yeah.

Plus that perfect gel test performance of the .310 123 V-Max.

And the 125 Nos BT.

So we have adequate performing defense loads that recoil from just above the 5.56 level to the 300 Savage level. I think it's time to get a Bullet Test Tube and some varmint bullets and see what I can come up with.

 

[eliphalet]

Bit of a different direction but for a light recoil 308 caliber, why not a heavy bullet at a slower FPS? Say a 220 grain bullet at 1500 to 2000 FPS.
SD is going to be a short range situation a heavier bullet would have lots of "knock down" potential, plenty of penetration but not endanger the neighbors any more than necessary. Just another idea.

 

[pernicus]

not understanding why a lighter recoil .308 is needed? my 120lb fiance shoots my tikka t3 light without any noticeable recoil and she hardly qualifies as an experience shooter


168gr blackhills match in the lightest .308 tikka makes

 

[Bitswap]

HD rounds, lightening up a 308... hmmm.

Someone once broke all the rules and put a heavy (270 gr) bullet behind a light charge in 30 caliber.

What happened was since the bullet was subsonic it only lost a hundered FPS to 100 yards. It wasn't bucking the shock wave of a supersonic load. This broke all the rules but worked, some whispered...

Case and point: the 45 ACP. Probably the best round for humans. 235 grains and 870 fps. Will throw the target backward instead of going through it keeping the corpses out of the trenches.

Besides the 45 ACP what do we have that will do this? Well the aboved-mentioned 300 whisper will, but on research I found the 44 mag or 45 colt is in the came category. At 1100 fps a bit faster than the 45. Loading a low and slow round in the 308 will work, but IMO dangerous. There's a reason for a 'minimum' charge.

If your dead set on a 30 cal light load, get a 300 whisper barrel, go a cheap marlin 336 in 44 mag... same diff.

 

[iamkris]

Case and point: the 45 ACP. Probably the best round for humans. 235 grains and 870 fps. Will throw the target backward instead of going through it keeping the corpses out of the trenches.

Methinks you may be watching too many movies and confusing what actors do when they get "shot" and what really happens.

 

[Bitswap]

iamkris,

Ok, I'll give you that one. But that's what the 45 ACP was designed to do. It was effective in one shot kills though and designed to spend all it's energy inside the cavity of a bi-ped. I don't belive what I see on TV or the movies. But I'll guarantee in a ballistics gell test, a pancake 45 will do much more damage than a 5.56 or 7.65.

 

[eliphalet]

But I'll guarantee in a ballistics gell test, a pancake 45 will do much more damage than a 5.56 or 7.65.

I am not real sure a 45 ACP will "pancake' a FMJ bullet into a steel plate at 5 feet, much less into flesh, they will make a large hole, all or most of the damage will be very close to that hole and that's about it.
Take a .223 HP at 3000 + FPS and shoot a milk jug full of water, ten feet away, then do the same with a 45 and then tell us which you would rather be hit with. the damage to surrounding tissue from the HP would be devastating
What a FMJ .223 does at one hundred yards is completely different than what a hollow point will do up close.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Ok, I'll give you that one. But that's what the 45 ACP was designed to do.

The desire was the get 45 Long Colt performance in an auto-loader, plus some esoteric and rather irrelevant other requirements (i.e. the Cavalry wanted a round that could be used to reliably put down a crippled horse with a head shot at point blank range).

It was effective in one shot kills

Mythology. With the debatable exception of the magnum revolver cartridges, all hand gun cartridges are very ineffective man stoppers and killers. None have a repuation for reliable single shot kills or incapacitations, unless shot placement is adequate.

But I'll guarantee in a ballistics gell test, a pancake 45 will do much more damage than a 5.56 or 7.65.

More damage than high power rifle rounds? No.

 

[Bitswap]

Quote:

A bullet will destroy or damage any tissues which it penetrates, creating a wound channel. It will also cause nearby tissue to stretch and expand as it passes through tissue. These two effects are typically referred to as permanent cavitation (the hole left by the bullet) and temporary cavitation (the tissue displaced as the bullet passed).

The degree to which permanent and temporary cavitation occur is dependant on the weight, diameter, material, design and velocity of the bullet. This is because bullets crush tissue, and do not cut it. A bullet constructed with a half diameter ogive designed meplat and hard, solid copper alloy material will crush only the tissue directly in front of the bullet. This type of bullet (monolithic-solid rifle bullet) is conducive to cause more temporary cavitation as the tissue flows around the bullet, causing a deep and narrow wound channel. A bullet constructed with a two diameter, hollow point ogive designed meplat and low antimony lead core with a thin gilding metal jacket material will crush tissue in front and to the sides as the bullet expands. Due to the energy expended in bullet expansion, velocity is lost more quickly. This type of bullet (hollow-point hand gun bullet) is conducive to causing more permanent cavitation as the tissue is crushed and accelerated into other tissues by the bullet, causing a shorter and more voluminous wound channel.

Unquote

There was a reason snipers in WWII (or was it WWI) loaded their rounds backwards: to cause more damage. Wad cutters cause the most damage with hollow points coming in next. This is basicially a defination of "stopping power".

 

[USSR]

There was a reason snipers in WWII (or was it WWI) loaded their rounds backwards: to cause more damage.

***? That's absurd. Snipers, or any other soldier, did not "load their rounds". And a cartridge loaded in such a manner would have all the accuracy of an exit poll.

Don

 

[Bitswap]

USSR, Yup, some snipers took the bullet out and put it in bacwards. It would do more damage that way. And, I guess using your theroy, wadcutters aren't very accurate either? hmmm...

That's why I like the 44 mag. Not sure if a wadcutter would do more damage than a hollow point. The idea of a wadcutter as a 'hunting' load is it diverts and bounces around and tumbles after it hits.

This is probably all moot anyway. Irregardless if 308, 45, 44... getting hit with any of these will ruin your day.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Wasn't there just a thread on the backwards bullet thing in WW1? Maybe it was over at TFL. Seems like the general consensus was that evidence for it was debatable, but it has been often mentioned in articles and books on WW1.

In any case, if it was done, it was apparently to improve anti-armor capability against early tanks.