Lowest Caliber for Deer

Status
Not open for further replies.
Vern, I have never said that using "too much" gun is a bad thing. I can appreciate where you are coming from on this one. Where Logos and I dissagree is the fact that he seems to believe that having a 270 allows him to get away with what is essentially, immature and childish behavior. He seems to believe that using a 270 gives him enough leeway to take poorly angled, long distance shots.

If this is not the case then I appologize, Logos. The way you have worded your posts leads me to believe that you feel this way. I would rather stalk in close to a big buck and shoot him in the neck with a 223 then shoot him in the arse from 300 yards away with a 270 or 7 mag.

Is any of this sinking in? I am not bashing anybody's decision to hunt with a larger caliber gun. I am simply saying that there are small caliber rifles out there that are more than capable of killing a deer humanely and quickly with out the kind of recoil that causes some hunters to flinch. The 223 with a heavy bullet, anywhere from 60 grains and up, with a soft tip design is quite capable of killing deer.
 
Saw a deer killed with a 222 from a contender, it didn't go over 100 feet or so. Shot at 30 yds. or so standing broadside.
That said if I had my choice I would not use less than a 24 caliber gun and in fact use a 30. First time I went deer huntin I was 12 that woulda been 1961. I have shoot a bunch of deer since but have yet to shoot one in the rear from behind or through the hind quarters. I have been lucky maybe, as stuff happens hunting. Lost a real nice buck one day cause I wouldn't but there are always more deer, and my gosh would I hate to gut one shot up the backend.
.
Art put it pretty good in his first post, and the only way I would intentionally shoot at a deer other than a heart lung shot would be a real fantastic trophy. That isn't gonna happen this year as I have drawn a doe tag again. I stopped shooting bucks years ago, if I can draw a doe tag, cause does usually have better meat and a nice big barren mule deer doe is a large as a medium buck anyhow.
Good hunting guys, use your heads out there and try not to wound and lose your animal, it'll ruin your day and I have seen it ruin a new hunters deer hunting forever. They went more but could never pull the trigger and finally stopped completely.
 
Well, I will be damned! The world must be spinning in reverse because Eliphalet and I almost agree on something!:D That was a joke, I swear...well...mostly a joke anyways.:neener::D
 
Err on the side of shot placement. You can "wing 'em" with a Howitzer and knock 'em down; but they don't eat too good! :rolleyes:
 
I would rather stalk in close to a big buck and shoot him in the neck with a 223 then shoot him in the arse from 300 yards away with a 270 or 7 mag.
Click to expand...

Ah, if it were only so easy.......but whitetail hunting rarely works that way. Where I hunt, you don't stalk, and you certainly don't "stalk" trophy bucks. Some "still hunt," some sit in a stand and some do drives.....most do a little of each.

When you use the term "stalk" it makes me wonder if you've picked up all your deer hunting knowledge from a very bad book.

Neck shots are only made when a lung shot cannot be made.....or when they happen by accident.....which does happen sometimes, especially on running deer.

Those neophytes who use the neck shot by choice will soon have a "dead" deer get up and get away from them and have misses when the deer moves his head. They have to learn the hard way.

Your apology is appreciated, but I must say that you are are extremely confused about what I said. You make it sound like I prefer and advocate shooting deer at long range and the worst angles. That's not what I said at all.

What I said was that you need a rifle of .270 class or better to take advantage of the very tough opportunities that are a part of hunting trophy whitetails.....and yes, that includes the stern to stem shot if that's all you get.......you take it because you have the skill to do it and because you will probably never see that deer again. If you know your skill level and your rifle's abilities, you can make that choice without undue danger of wounding.

However, if you choose to walk around with a .223, you will not be equipped to even attempt a long and difficult shot on big deer. You just pass up most shots.

You will have less than half the reach of someone with a real deer rifle and you will only be able to take broadside shots to slip that tiny bullet in behind the shoulder.

Perhaps you also like to play golf with only a 9-iron and a putter. So be it. If it's more fun for you that way, have at it.

Some folks here who advocate puny rifles are apparently talking about shooting flea-bitten southern whitetails that weigh about 100 pounds soaking wet and covered with mud after being chased through a swamp.

That ain't what I'm talking about......I'm talking about real deer.

What I have said has been clear......if you use a weak gun, you limit yourself--and if that's what you like, that's good for you......."stalk" your brains out and have fun doing it.

Most people prefer results, though.

Some also use primitive weapons.....bows, black powder rifles and spears and nunchaku and slingshots and frisbees and such things......it's a different type of hunting and that's fine for those who enjoy such activities.

But, if you want to be really ready to take that trophy with a long, tough shot that has to penetrate and break bones.....you need a decent gun.

That's why I recommended the .270 class and above.
 
How much skill does it take to shoot a deer up the ass, Logos? I think I'll pass on the shots facing away from me. I was raised not to shoot a deer unless I could see his head, neck or front shoulder.

Stalking is a legitimate method of hunting deer. The open rolling hills, mixed with hard woods makes it a very legitimate method for me. I've only killed a few deer while sitting in a stand.

As far as the neck shot goes, I've hunted for long time and seriously doubt that I have ever killed less than five deer per season. Many of those deer have been shot in the neck, and none of those shot in the neck have ever gotten up to walk away. I can't say the same about the deer shot in the lungs. It sounds to me like you are talking through your posterior.

I don't feel as though a 270 gives you enough penetration to logically expect to kill every deer you shoot up the backside. It just isn't a good shot. Bullets do crazy things once they enter an animal's body. They don't always push straight through and find vitals. I think you owe it to the animal to wait for a more reliable angle.
 
I take it back.....you didn't read about deer hunting (or ballistics, for that matter) in a very bad book.

I can't imagine an author so misinformed, so you must have gotten your information elsewhere.

Urban legend comes to mind.
 
Neckshots are the easy way out :) I guess if you use and underpowered gun you gotta take the easy way out. It amazes me that people would even consider a .223 for anything bigger than a bobcat :) Even most coyote hunters will not recommend it for long range coyote hunting. They will tell you the .22-250 is the way to go.
 
Rubenz, I have heard a neck shot called many, many things, but never have I heard it called easy.:what: Most people seem to think the only thing harder to hit is a deer's head. You sure have a twisted view on things. If a neck shot is the easy way out for you then I want to watch you hunt. I guess you shoot eyeballs?
 
He was probably talking about the base of the neck and not the part of the neck near the head. From the side the vital area is a roughly four inches high at the base and it tapers smaller as it goes toward the head.
 
I think it is safe to say I feel the same about your hunting methods, Logos. I've seen many deer shot in many palces with a vast assortment of calibers from 22LR all the way up to a 375 H&H. I've seen a 22LR drop a deer in it's tracks and I have seen a deer run 300 yards through a cutover after a heart shot with a 7mm WSM. The fact is that there is no perfect caliber out there. As long as there is such a vast assortment of calibers there will be a vast assortment of opinions. Logos, I have never said your .270 is a bad choice. You and others have repeatedly tried to convince me that the 223 is bad choice. My problem with you lies in the types of shooting you advocate. For the life of me, I can not figure out how any moral, ethical hunter could even contemplate seriously taking a shot at a deer walking away from them at any distance, unless they were shooting it in the back of the neck.

Logos, make me understand if you can how it could be impossible to wait for a deer to present a better angle. Are you hunting with dogs? If you are hunting from a stand then there are options at your disposal that would allow you to take a better shot then putting one between the hind quarters. Your logic seems flawed to me.
 
Meekandmild, if that is the case then it is the same sized target as the shoulder. I think Rubenz types before he thinks sometimes.
 
I will agree with Marksman on shooting a deer walking away. I would never that shot..

And yes marksman, sometimes I do type before I think.
 
I assure you that comment was made mostly in jest. I forgot to tack on a smilie face. I just can't comprehend shooting a deer in the butt.
 
My daddy always said that if you hit Ol' Bucky in the white spot, he doesn't go anywhere. So, not knowing any different, I took it for granted that if you bust 'em in the neck, they don't go anywhere.

So far, so good. Most of my Texas deer hunting in serious fashion was back in the two-buck limit days for whitetail. Of the forty-some bucks I tagged, about half were neck shots. Most of those neck shots were with a .243, 85-grain Sierra HPBT, and inside of a hundred or so yards. None beyond maybe 125, anyhow. My longer shots were with my pet '06.

I've stalked the jungly stuff in the Appalachicola River bottoms around Blountstown, Florida. Walk a little, lean against a tree a lot. Mostly, deer come wandering right on by, and shots are sorta up close and personal.

My preference has always been cross-country walking-hunting. Kick Bucky out of bed, look him over, and if ya want him, take him. Gotta have some notion of how much to lead, though. Put the crosshairs about a neck-and-a-half in front of his nose, he'll generally wad up. The deal is that you have to follow through, just like dove hunting. That's where, IMO, an '06 beats a .243, any day. If I'm off just a hair, he's still gonna pile up and I'll have time to get in a next shot if needed.

But just sittin' around where you have a pretty good idea that the deer's gonna show up some twenty to fifty yards out, I don't think it makes a lot of difference what you're using.

:), Art
 
I can agree with that, Art. If I'm walking the thick stuff like that though I'm toting a shotgun or a 30-30. It really does boil right down to the type of hunting you are doing and confidence in your gun of choice.
 
"My" .270, Marksman13?

Show me where I ever said I have a .270?

You are so confused.....you have somehow morphed the discussion into .270 vs. .223.....and it was never about that.

You seem to have the misconception that one can switch weapons at will when encountering different types of terrain. Not where I hunt. It's typical northern whitetail country--one big mixture of thick woods, farm fields, meadows, swamps......10 yard shots to 400 yard shots......you hunt it all.....and you can't just change weapons at will.

That's why it's best to have something that CAN do it ALL......that usually means a fairly compact bolt-action rifle of the .270 class or better with a 2X7 variable scope.

But a 30-30? Or a .223? Well, they are laughably FAR from the top choice in my area.

And, you say, "Wait for a deer to present a better angle?"

No, you take your shot as quickly as you can, because that big buck is moving, his nose is in the air, the rut is on, and he may be ten miles away in an hour.

He will disappear in seconds and it is highly unlikely you will ever see that big buck again.

Where I hunt, you take your shot as it comes, and you take it now.....long or short, sideways or endwise, breaking bone, punching through brush--whatever it takes.

And for that you need a modern and powerful rifle.

Since you have so little experience with shooting deer from stern to front, I'll tell you that deer so shot with such a rifle go down very, very quickly......meaning either instantly or within 25-40 yards.

Instantly if the bullet comes close enough to the spine along the way.

Very quickly if the bullet just ranges from the pelvis to the heart/lung area, because that bullet is passing through vital organs all the way and breaking a tremendous number of blood vessels and causing massive nerve damage and other trauma as it makes its long journey to the heart/lung area.

Yes, it's a stupid and unsportsmanlike shot for you and your .223. You are right not to take it.......but for me it's just another dead deer.

It's all about being properly equipped.
 
I like the 1000 ft lb ol' adage except that 6mm is the minimum caliber I would accept making that 1000 ft lbs on target. I've killed more game, deer, hog, what ever, with a .257 Roberts than anything else. I've killed 'em just as dead as with my 7 mag. Don't take a cannon, but .22s are a little lacking of lead for my taste.
 
Ah, but show me, Logos where I ever said I had a 223. You have managed to confuse yourself. How bout you take whatever rifle you have and continue to shoot your deer between the hams, and I'll keep shooting mine in the neck or shoulder with my 243, 30-06, 30-30, and 7mm WSM?

Being a true sportsman, a true hunter if you will, requires knowing the animal that you hunt. It requires knowing your tools and how to use them in the best interest of yourself AND THE ANIMAL YOU ARE HUNTING.

Shooting deer up the "poop chute" is unethical in my opinion. It is merely that though; just my opinion. No need to get mad and question my experience. I have never told you that your rifle was inadequate, yet you continue to bash my style of hunting and the tools I use. Your posts have for the most part been entertaining, but immature. You strike me as the type who wishes to impose your ideas on anyone who will listen. Your attitude, and your arrogant tone don't impress me. I simply don't care what you have to say anymore. You obviously can't have an intelligent discussion with someone who has a different point of view than you do.

I think it best if we drop the conversation before it turns into a insult hurling contest. These types of threads have been known to get quite ugly and I do not wish to go there. I think it is in the best interest of each of us to just ignore eachother, before we get this thread locked.
 
Last edited:
Rifles lined up for 2007 Hunting Season.

P17 30-06 in military configuration.

30-40 Krag. (Full-length barrel but a peepsight has been added and the stock cut back.)

K98 Mauser. (WWII bring-back with lyman peep added.)

AR15 carbine. (Might as well give it a try.)

Chilean 7X57 Carbine. 7X57. (Same as my Ruger #1 so I handload for it.)

Argentine 1891 Engineers Carbine. 7X65 cal.

M1 Carbine 30 cal.

Swedish M38. 6.5.

Jap Type 44. 6.5.

Swiss K31 7.5.
 
Some would say that Art's style of kickin' 'em up and shootin' 'em on the run is "unethical", but I've done it and totally enjoy that style of deer shootin'. It reminds me of hunting rabbits with a .22 when I was a kid, only there's more time to get on the deer than I ever had to get on a rabbit. :D I've made shots at 50-75 yards on running game, not that hard to accomplish. And, yeah, you need a little more gun if you can't be sure of hitting something very vital. Lung shots do the trick with a 7 mag, even lung/liver.

I mostly feeder watch and can place my shots in the shoulder. Out in west Texas, there's more open country. You can see for miles and a deer can hide behind a blade of grass. It's prime country for Art's style of hunting. Around here, the vegetation is thick, the deer have no problem hiding out in the brush, and the land acreage is small. So, you're stuck with feeder watching. That's okay, but I'd sure rather be on some 10K acre place out west spot and stalking , more fun. I ain't complaining, though. At least I have a place to hunt. That right there is a major accomplishment in Texas, the land of the millionaire leasing system. It's getting to the point you either have to know a rancher well, like BFF, or inherit land, or make a Bill Gates income if you wanna hunt deer. It's ridiculous. I guess I'll be feeder watching until I die. For feeder watching, I've never lost a deer with a .257 Roberts, in fact, never lost a deer with it, period. Of the few dozen it's killed in my hands, only one went more'n a few steps and I was using a heavy 117 grain Hornady interlock that didn't open up through the lungs. Went back to my Sierra game kings after that. Actually, I've killed a few with it doing Art's style of hunting, but it's more of a feeder watching gun. With those 117 Hornadys, though, I did shoot through an 8 point stem to stern once, total penetration. It's all in the bullet. I'd still prefer my .308 or better for jumping deer, though. I can tell ya this, if you shoot 'em in the butt and it exits their throat, they fall right in their tracks. I've done it twice, once with the .257 and once with my .308 and both deer were dead before they hit the ground. The .257 cut the aorta on the way through and the .308 left and exit wound in the throat the size of a soft ball (Nosler ballistic tip).

One of my favorite feeder watching guns, sorta puts a little more sport in it, is my .30-30 Contender. It puts 1000 ft lbs on target all the way out to just shy of 200 yards and a long shot down on my place is 100 yards. Field rests, that's about all I can do with a handgun anyway. It's killed 5 deer in their tracks, so far. It makes less energy than a .243, though there's a little more lead in the bullet. It's quite deadly. Heck, I've taken TWO deer with a .357 magnum blackhawk at 760 ft lbs at the muzzle. Shots were under 50 yards, deer fell dead. One I shot with my .357 carbine at 80 yards went about 20 yards before falling, lung shot behind the shoulder. It don't take a cannon. My 7 mag is a safe queen anymore. About all I hunt with is my .308 anymore when rifle hunting. It's enough gun for a big hog should I wanna shoot one and overkill for whitetail. Hogs is one thing I've got on my piddlin' little plot of land that Art ain't got. Javelinas don't count. :D
 
I agree, Deer Leasing in Texas has become too business oriented. It's sad that the avg joe who wants to take his little son out deer hunting has to pay 3+ k for a lease. Not like the good old days where leases could be found under 1k.
 
The price is a little higher than inflation, if you say a deer lease cost $700.00 30 years ago, but then again look at the percentage of budget that $700 represented back then, and that is about what $3,000.00 is today... In some places it is more than that, in which case it is tracking the realestate market...

I am with you, I wish they were cheaper, but they are not a bad deal now.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

A
  • Locked
Lowest caliber for:
Replies
13
Views
870
marksman13
marksman13
J
  • Locked
Keep in mind
Replies
3
Views
375
jbkebert
J
P
  • Locked
A smaller caliber for cougar than for deer?
Replies
11
Views
2K
sm
S
J
  • Locked
Thought experiment: The clash of the marginal deer rounds
2 3
Replies
68
Views
4K
WestKentucky
WestKentucky
B
  • Locked
Auto handgun caliber for deer?
2
Replies
33
Views
11K
Legionnaire
Legionnaire
Back
Top