Thought experiment: The clash of the marginal deer rounds
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d2wing
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I have used all three on larger deer, the .223 hands down. Much more effective than the other two at any range if you use proper expanding bullets. Slugs, both 20 and 12 are disappointing. I only deer I ever lost out of 100 or so was with a 20 gauge slug. Another hit with a 12 gauge I and a friend tracked for 3/4 mile. And we both hit the deer, mine was a low lung shot. It was still alive and I finished it with the .357. A .223 would have been much more lethal. The .357 is ok at close range using expanding bullets. A key is excellent shot placement. No problem with the .223. Tissue damage is much greater with the .223. It makes mush out of lungs.
I have tried a few slug combinations, I get really good accuracy out of Winchester premium sabots in a 11-87 rifled slug gun with a red dot sight. The last deer I shot with it went right down, but I was about 40 yards away and hit it in the front shoulders. BTW I am 70 and very much prefer optic sights.
I have tried a few slug combinations, I get really good accuracy out of Winchester premium sabots in a 11-87 rifled slug gun with a red dot sight. The last deer I shot with it went right down, but I was about 40 yards away and hit it in the front shoulders. BTW I am 70 and very much prefer optic sights.
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redbullitt
Member
223 for sure with a good bullet. I would not even consider it a handicap in the situation you describe. For close shots like that I might even CHOOSE that rifle sometimes.
223 with a proper hunting bullet does a really good job and has fairly favorable exterior ballistics for the situation you describe.
223 with a proper hunting bullet does a really good job and has fairly favorable exterior ballistics for the situation you describe.
I wouldn't hesitate to hunt deer with any of those choices and I don't consider any of them to be marginal.
It's just my opinion, but I think that we, as Americans, get really caught up in the idea that we need something the equivalent of a freight train to hunt anything.
And you don't.
A 20 gauge slug is marginal ? If I did my math right, that is about 275 grains at 1580 Feet Per Second.
.223 is far from marginal on deer sized animals.
It's just my opinion, but I think that we, as Americans, get really caught up in the idea that we need something the equivalent of a freight train to hunt anything.
And you don't.
A 20 gauge slug is marginal ? If I did my math right, that is about 275 grains at 1580 Feet Per Second.
.223 is far from marginal on deer sized animals.
Varminterror
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Kudos to the OP on this one - it's a well deceivingly well designed thought experiment.
On the surface, it can be answered by an unsupported subjective experience bias - I've never lived in a state with a shotgun only season, so I've never learned to favor shotguns over rifles. For other folks who have spent time living in those areas, the devil-they-know is the slug gun, so they'll support it over either rifle. The younger crowd is more prone to have experience shooting AR's than revolver cartridge leverguns, so they'll be more likely to shoot from the hip and favor the 223rem. I'd venture folks from states where 22cal CF's have been legal for many years AND the terrain is open, such as Texas, would favor the 223rem as well, whereas guys from back east would subjectively select the short handling, open sighted levergun in 357mag over a 223rem which might leave their deer to run far enough to get lost in the woods... Any of these are valid for an open ended thought experiment, however, answering with an experience bias doesn't really give the game its due.
For what it is, this is really well designed - I hope the OP realized that, rather than stumbling on it accidentally. By throwing short ranges and small deer in the mix as the application, it eliminates the experience bias of guys like myself, who have always lived and hunted in states where bucks average heavier weights than men. This leveled the playing field for a real spin. The 3 cartridge options which he chose are all "challenged," (maybe "marginal" isn't the ideal word for some folks?) and all advantaged in different ways. The .357mag has minimal kinetic energy, but heavy bullets to the bullet momentum is high, so it also has a trajectory like a half court shot, but it can be found in rather accurate rifles. The Slug has plenty of KE, heavy for substantial momentum as well, and also has a rainbow road flight path, but typically the precision is lacking for the sluggers. The 223rem has plenty of KE, but the light bullets drag down the momentum substantially; unlike the others, this one has a flat trajectory and can be had in incredibly precise rifles. What one doesn't have, the other two do, all in a round robin game of have and have not...
Personally, I don't care for any of the 3 options, hence I don't commonly field them, but I have taken deer with all of them - bigger deer than the experiment... I don't favor imprecise hunting firearms, so it rules out shotguns for me. If under 100yrds were the game, I'd pick the 357mag, for the "occasional 200yrds" game, I'd take the 223rem. So for this particular game, I pick the 223rem.
On the surface, it can be answered by an unsupported subjective experience bias - I've never lived in a state with a shotgun only season, so I've never learned to favor shotguns over rifles. For other folks who have spent time living in those areas, the devil-they-know is the slug gun, so they'll support it over either rifle. The younger crowd is more prone to have experience shooting AR's than revolver cartridge leverguns, so they'll be more likely to shoot from the hip and favor the 223rem. I'd venture folks from states where 22cal CF's have been legal for many years AND the terrain is open, such as Texas, would favor the 223rem as well, whereas guys from back east would subjectively select the short handling, open sighted levergun in 357mag over a 223rem which might leave their deer to run far enough to get lost in the woods... Any of these are valid for an open ended thought experiment, however, answering with an experience bias doesn't really give the game its due.
For what it is, this is really well designed - I hope the OP realized that, rather than stumbling on it accidentally. By throwing short ranges and small deer in the mix as the application, it eliminates the experience bias of guys like myself, who have always lived and hunted in states where bucks average heavier weights than men. This leveled the playing field for a real spin. The 3 cartridge options which he chose are all "challenged," (maybe "marginal" isn't the ideal word for some folks?) and all advantaged in different ways. The .357mag has minimal kinetic energy, but heavy bullets to the bullet momentum is high, so it also has a trajectory like a half court shot, but it can be found in rather accurate rifles. The Slug has plenty of KE, heavy for substantial momentum as well, and also has a rainbow road flight path, but typically the precision is lacking for the sluggers. The 223rem has plenty of KE, but the light bullets drag down the momentum substantially; unlike the others, this one has a flat trajectory and can be had in incredibly precise rifles. What one doesn't have, the other two do, all in a round robin game of have and have not...
Personally, I don't care for any of the 3 options, hence I don't commonly field them, but I have taken deer with all of them - bigger deer than the experiment... I don't favor imprecise hunting firearms, so it rules out shotguns for me. If under 100yrds were the game, I'd pick the 357mag, for the "occasional 200yrds" game, I'd take the 223rem. So for this particular game, I pick the 223rem.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
.357, hands down. Sorry but I don't dig on varmint cartridges for big game. The .223 has more range but a 180gr WFN will leave a lot more margin for error and is capable of larger critters. Any generic 158gr JHP/JSP will do for deer but the .223 really needs super-premium bullets to do its best work.
Where I hunt, it's more like ten minutes, max.
entropy
Member
Or for them to be sent to the correct area on the target. I wouldn't call 55 gr. V-Max a 'super-premium' bullet for deer, but it works if you put it in the lungs and/or heart at ranges out to 225 yards, as my son's 15 deer taken with them are testament to. He won't hunt with any other bullet. I prefer 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip Varmints, though I've been thinking about the 60 gr. Partition.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Even if I did hunt deer with the .223, that is definitely not the bullet I would use. IMHO, the game deserves better than that.
marksman13
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Comparing 1970s bullet technology to the bullets of today is ridiculous. A 223 will absolutely ragdoll a 17 HMR or 22 Mag. A simple comparison of the numbers would show you that.
Nature Boy
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I’d go with .223, a 65g Gameking and push it as fast as possible.
I’ve seen how devastating a .22-250 can be on deer
I’ve seen how devastating a .22-250 can be on deer
Garandimal
member
The .357 Mag., loaded with 180 gr. HDY XTP to ~ 1800 fps from a carbine?
Will have ~ 765 lb-ft of energy at 150 yards, and penetrate ~ two(2) feet.
GR
Will have ~ 765 lb-ft of energy at 150 yards, and penetrate ~ two(2) feet.
GR
20ga slug gun
There good to about 100 yrd with iron sights.
I just watched a you tube video where 3 guy shoot deer at 300yrd with their 20ga . Now it was a bolt action and nice scope with sabots that I'm sure they practiced and sighted in for that distance but it was still impressive.
For under a 100yrd you can not beat a slug gun . Probably kills more deer than any other gun.
223 neck shots only but has the accuracy to pull it off .
There good to about 100 yrd with iron sights.
I just watched a you tube video where 3 guy shoot deer at 300yrd with their 20ga . Now it was a bolt action and nice scope with sabots that I'm sure they practiced and sighted in for that distance but it was still impressive.
For under a 100yrd you can not beat a slug gun . Probably kills more deer than any other gun.
223 neck shots only but has the accuracy to pull it off .
GooseGestapo
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I'm actually saddled with a similar delemma.
Only shotguns are allowed an a large acreage of Federal property I have immediate access to (closest is 660' from my property line).
For that, I use a Savage M220 rifled 20ga.
For my backyard, I can shoot up to ~220yds. Got an 8pt Christmas Day with a Rem Mod 7 .223 shooting a 60gr Hornady Spt. ( see avatar!)
I have a multitude of rifles/calibers. I use the best tool for application. Oftentimes modulated by what mood I'm in.
Sometimes a .375Ruger, or .300RUM. More often a lever action. A Marlin1894 .44mag w/2-7xLeupold VX1 has seen duty from the backyard deer stand this season. It's not a "lucky" rifle... got two does on a WMA hunt with a 7mm08, another 8pt with the 20ga "rifle" on Corp.of Eng. property.
Like Golf, use the right "club" for the "lay".
Only shotguns are allowed an a large acreage of Federal property I have immediate access to (closest is 660' from my property line).
For that, I use a Savage M220 rifled 20ga.
For my backyard, I can shoot up to ~220yds. Got an 8pt Christmas Day with a Rem Mod 7 .223 shooting a 60gr Hornady Spt. ( see avatar!)
I have a multitude of rifles/calibers. I use the best tool for application. Oftentimes modulated by what mood I'm in.
Sometimes a .375Ruger, or .300RUM. More often a lever action. A Marlin1894 .44mag w/2-7xLeupold VX1 has seen duty from the backyard deer stand this season. It's not a "lucky" rifle... got two does on a WMA hunt with a 7mm08, another 8pt with the 20ga "rifle" on Corp.of Eng. property.
Like Golf, use the right "club" for the "lay".
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I was never able to get past 1500 with 180s in my 16" R92 comfortably. 158s would come close to 1700.
MCgunner
Member
You must not be shootin' the right powder. Even 2400 will push a 158 grainer to just under 1900 fps. Li'l Gun will better 1900, but I throttle it back to mid 1800s.
I was easily able to get over 1600 fps from a 180 XTP using AA#9. I think Li'l Gun would likely better that by a bit.
Or you can always use Buffalo Bore. They show a 158 grain JHP pushing well over 2000 fps. Not sure how they do that.
You must not be shootin' the right powder. Even 2400 will push a 158 grainer to just under 1900 fps. Li'l Gun will better 1900, but I throttle it back to mid 1800s.
I was easily able to get over 1600 fps from a 180 XTP using AA#9. I think Li'l Gun would likely better that by a bit.
Or you can always use Buffalo Bore. They show a 158 grain JHP pushing well over 2000 fps. Not sure how they do that.
I got up to 15grn of h110 with the 180s and cases started to stick. 14.5 would brake 1500 by bit but not by a whole lot.
The 158s i only had about 30 so just pulled a load from hodgons site and went a grain low of max. I probably would have gone up from there, but i sold the rifle.
Your right tho i never experimented with lilgun, or any other propellent, as i stock h110 for my socom.
WestKentucky
Member
For your scenario, 20ga is a really close second to the .223 which gets the nod based on easy accuracy. 20ga slugs are deer hammers and lays them down quick, but a 223 with optics lets you make a better shot at anything beyond bow range.
In my situation I have left very nice deer rifles behind in favor of a 20ga youth pumpgun with a 20” barrel to hunt in a thicket where you locate by smell and start looking for antler.
In my situation I have left very nice deer rifles behind in favor of a 20ga youth pumpgun with a 20” barrel to hunt in a thicket where you locate by smell and start looking for antler.
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