Lucky Gunner Gel Test Median Results by Caliber

[Hartkopf]

The median expansion and penetration of every caliber has been on Lucky Gunners website for years. They have tested LOTS of ammo in clear gel in every major caliber. Usually in short, carry length barrels.

Handgun Self-Defense Ammunition - Ballistic Testing Data (luckygunner.com)

I thought the median expansion and penetration numbers by caliber was interesting. Does it mean anything in the real world?

Caliber------EXP----------PEN
380---------.475-----------13.3
38Spec----.535-----------14.8
9mm--------.580----------17.9
357Mag----.585----------17.3
357Sig------.600----------18.3
40S&W-----.686----------16.5
45ACP------.731----------16.7
10mm-------.665----------18.9


So, as you can clearly see, the 45ACP is the obvious king of handgun calibers!!!

Seriously, it's just numbers in gel and I thought it was interesting to look at their testing in a broader sense, comparing caliber to caliber.

 

[illinoisburt]

I think what the numbers actually tell us is manufacturers did a very good job of designing ammunition to meet the FBI standards. The original conclusion was for a handgun round to be consistently effective, it needed to penetrate 12”-18” in calibrated gelatin and expand to at least 1.5 times its original diameter. It appears all of these meet that goal.

 

[hso]

Does it mean anything in the real world?

Not as much as people read into them.

 

[tarosean]

So, as you can clearly see, the 45ACP is the obvious king of handgun calibers!!!

None of them make a bigger hole though. 45acp only gets bigger.

Let the caliber wars begin!!!

 

[Hartkopf]

Not as much as people read into them.

And there’s so much to consider with how well a person can shoot different calibers in different guns. I shoot my G30 45acp pretty good but no matter how many thousands of rounds I burn, my shot timer keeps telling me to carry a Glock in 9mm.

 

[defjon]

I sometimes wonder if this homogeneous jhp result is why you see many more rounds fired and failures to stop these days, feeding this perceived need for more and more capacity to make up for it.

I know this is going against the gospel of JHP's and hyper expensive boutique ammo...and I'm not trying to start any wars here.

Certain calibers were pretty well regarded with the authority to authoritatively stop a deranged aggressor in the past. I think of big slow moving rounds from the 45 lc, or Webley, etc.

Ballistic gel isn't flesh, it doesn't have varying degrees of thickness and fluid. It doesn't have blood and muscle and bone. We focus on over penetration as the bogeyman to avoid at all costs.

Just musings here, but I think overall decibel level (especially indoors) could matter, as well as bullet weight, any number of other factors are worth considering.

Medicine has come a long way and we dismiss old effective loads as being so because of poor after care. But humans haven't changed so much, except that maybe we as a whole have more visceral fat and more muscle as well with HGH etc.

40+ caliber loadings should really be performing markedly better in real world use, but instead it's remarkable how similar all these loadings have become.

 

[Riomouse911]

Gel is merely a standardized medium where bullet A can be compared to Bullet B, with some of the variables reduced.

It does show me that ammo makers have done a good job creating bullets and loads that are a vast improvement over the ones to be found years (even decades) ago.

Stay safe.

 

[JohnKSa]

Properly made 10% ballistic gelatin provides a good analog for human flesh in terms of AVERAGE penetration figures. It doesn't factor in bones or skin so it's not perfect.

Clear gel is something different. It does not replicate 10% ballistic gelatin performance. One can expect to see deeper penetration figures in clear gel, but it's not clear that it's possible to convert between penetration figures as the differences in penetration can vary significantly. One test showed that a .380ACP loading penetrated almost a third deeper (on average) in clear gel than ballistics gel while a .357SIG loading only penetrated about 3% deeper (on average) in the clear gel.

Even proponents of the value of testing in ballistics gel should be wary of figures derived from clear gel testing.

 

[Blue Brick]

No 44 Special?

 

[Necessary_Nutrient]

Caliber------EXP----------PEN
380---------.475-----------13.3 +33% lowest
38Spec----.535-----------14.8 +49.8%
9mm--------.580----------17.9 +63.3%
357Mag----.585----------17.3 +63.8%
357Sig------.600----------18.3 +69%
40S&W-----.686----------16.5 +71% highest
45ACP------.731----------16.7 +61.7%
10mm-------.665----------18.9 +65.8%

Added a result for the percentage of expansion from original caliber.

I think this is a fairly useful graphic to begin with, thanks for compiling this. I think it's unfortunate that the .40 has lost as much popularity as it has. The round is a strong stopper, hits a real sweet spot between overpowered 10mm and oversized .45 and, yes, does recoil harder in the same weight gun since it carries 20-50% more energy than the standard 9mm running at about 333 ft/lbs (usually runs from 400 Ft/Lbs up to 500 for some of the 155 Grain stuff) without needing +P.

Yes, times seem to be marginally slower than 9mm in IPSC or similar style pistol courses but a real life defensive encounter may not parallel the goals of a timed, scored event. 40 and 45 seem clearly to be the top two performers on the list and can both be handled by most shooters.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Energy into the target is often overlooked and I think is important as that drives shock and incapacitation. Energy was talked about more years ago but has fallen off over time, not sure why. Maybe, it doesn't matter as much as I think it does......

Shot placement is also key (CPT Obvious, I know).

I think the gel info is interesting and possibly informative but is often given a bit too much credence when compared to the "real world". However, I don't have a better solution for a standardized test material.

 

[CDW4ME]

Energy into the target is often overlooked and I think is important as that drives shock and incapacitation. Energy was talked about more years ago but has fallen off over time, not sure why. Maybe, it doesn't matter as much as I think it does......

Shot placement is also key (CPT Obvious, I know).

I think the gel info is interesting and possibly informative but is often given a bit too much credence when compared to the "real world". However, I don't have a better solution for a standardized test material.

I shot a deer with a 10mm 155 XTP and a bullet that expands to ~.65 in gel made 1 1/4'' holes in tissue and unlike the doctors who "can't tell a difference" I documented with pics and units of measure rather than anecdotal generalization.
I've had a couple of people post that the bullet tore tissue and that a 9mm (HST) that expands to ~.65 in gel could make 1 1/4'' holes in tissue too. I say great, show me pics; I've yet to see pics supporting that.

About energy and gel. Some people like to cite magic 2,200 fps as where bullets damage tissue they don't touch. I'm skeptical due to my 10mm example of one.

Is gel indicative of ASAP potential? I'll put forth an example from Lucky Gunner Testing:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
4'' 38 Special Remington 158+P LSWCHP 13.4'' / .56 - 921 fps - 298# KE
4'' 357 Mag Remington 125 SJHP 13.6'' / .54 - 1,473 fps - 602# KE

Near same result in gel. But the 357 Mag has 2x the KE.
If one believes the magic 2,200 fps threshold and that temporary cavity in gel meaningless then they think that 38 special has equal ASAP potential to the 357 Mag.
I'm a bit naïve and think the 357 Mag potentially has a ASAP advantage (same shot placement is assumed) despite the similar performance in gel.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

CDW,
Good info supporting my thoughts. 9mm looks to be equal to .357 in many gel tests, but the 357 is often putting out 50% or so more energy than a 9mm.

Few would say that 38 equals 357 but some will push that 9mm equals it, and while the gel supports that some when the energy is added back into the discussion it isn't the same. (not meaning to start a caliber war and I know a 9mm usually holds 2-3 times more ammo than most 357s).

 

[Hartkopf]

I shot a deer with a 10mm 155 XTP and a bullet that expands to ~.65 in gel made 1 1/4'' holes in tissue and unlike the doctors who "can't tell a difference" I documented with pics and units of measure rather than anecdotal generalization.
I've had a couple of people post that the bullet tore tissue and that a 9mm (HST) that expands to ~.65 in gel could make 1 1/4'' holes in tissue too. I say great, show me pics; I've yet to see pics supporting that.

About energy and gel. Some people like to cite magic 2,200 fps as where bullets damage tissue they don't touch. I'm skeptical due to my 10mm example of one.

Is gel indicative of ASAP potential? I'll put forth an example from Lucky Gunner Testing:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
4'' 38 Special Remington 158+P LSWCHP 13.4'' / .56 - 921 fps - 298# KE
4'' 357 Mag Remington 125 SJHP 13.6'' / .54 - 1,473 fps - 602# KE

Near same result in gel. But the 357 Mag has 2x the KE.
If one believes the magic 2,200 fps threshold and that temporary cavity in gel meaningless then they think that 38 special has equal ASAP potential to the 357 Mag.
I'm a bit naïve and think the 357 Mag potentially has a ASAP advantage (same shot placement is assumed) despite the similar performance in gel.

What was the velocity of that 155gr 10mm? Was it a Hornady loading or Underwood, or hand load? I’m curious because Underwood’s 40S&W 155gr XTP load is rated at 1300fps, which is near Hornady’s factory loaded velocity.

 

[Hartkopf]

Added a result for the percentage of expansion from original caliber.

I think this is a fairly useful graphic to begin with, thanks for compiling this. I think it's unfortunate that the .40 has lost as much popularity as it has. The round is a strong stopper, hits a real sweet spot between overpowered 10mm and oversized .45 and, yes, does recoil harder in the same weight gun since it carries 20-50% more energy than the standard 9mm running at about 333 ft/lbs (usually runs from 400 Ft/Lbs up to 500 for some of the 155 Grain stuff) without needing +P.

Yes, times seem to be marginally slower than 9mm in IPSA or similar style pistol courses but a real life defensive encounter may not parallel the goals of a timed, scored event. 40 and 45 seem clearly to be the top two performers on the list and can both be handled by most shooters.

Thanks for calculating the %s. 40S&W is the one caliber I gravitate to and makes me want to carry over the 9mm.

 

[CDW4ME]

What was the velocity of that 155gr 10mm? Was it a Hornady loading or Underwood, or hand load? I’m curious because Underwood’s 40S&W 155gr XTP load is rated at 1300fps, which is near Hornady’s factory loaded velocity.

It was a handload, chrono average was 1,400 fps from a 5'' Delta Elite.
At 18 yards (impact) it was calculated to be around the velocity of a factory 155 XTP from a Glock 21 - which is what I wanted.
Lucky Gunner shows the 10mm 155 XTP at 1,344 fps from a Glock 21 so the result I obtained at 18 yards is about what I'd expect from the factory bullet from a Glock at typical self defense distance of inside 7 yards. I've got a quarter (.95) in one pic and the wound in muscle (heart) is bigger than a quarter.

 

[Blue Brick]

The median expansion and penetration of every caliber has been on Lucky Gunners website for years. They have tested LOTS of ammo in clear gel in every major caliber. Usually in short, carry length barrels.

Handgun Self-Defense Ammunition - Ballistic Testing Data (luckygunner.com)

I thought the median expansion and penetration numbers by caliber was interesting. Does it mean anything in the real world?

Caliber------EXP----------PEN
380---------.475-----------13.3
38Spec----.535-----------14.8
9mm--------.580----------17.9
357Mag----.585----------17.3
357Sig------.600----------18.3
40S&W-----.686----------16.5
45ACP------.731----------16.7
10mm-------.665----------18.9


So, as you can clearly see, the 45ACP is the obvious king of handgun calibers!!!

Seriously, it's just numbers in gel and I thought it was interesting to look at their testing in a broader sense, comparing caliber to caliber.

Was this a Chris segment? I always take his suggestions, recommendations, or advice with a grain of salt. He suggests the trendy answers and is a well known gun snob.

 

[Hartkopf]

Was this a Chris segment? I always take his suggestions, recommendations, or advice with a grain of salt. He suggests the trendy answers and is a well known gun snob.

No I was curious to see what the broad averages were per caliber and Lucky Gunner has it all right there. Just something to look at.

Edit: I’m guessing he wouldn’t want a clear winner because it would hurt sales of other calibers. This thread might help 45ACP sales though??

 

[WrongHanded]

In my opinion, the median expansion and penetration of a wide variety of loads in any one cartridge, means absolutely nothing. So comparing the median of one cartridge to the next means very little if anything.

The expansion and penetration numbers of the loads you might be considering carrying? Those matter much more. Compare loads, not cartridges.

 

[LimaCharlie]

Go big or stay under the porch.

 

[WrongHanded]

Edit: I’m guessing he wouldn’t want a clear winner because it would hurt sales of other calibers. This thread might help 45ACP sales though??

With those results, it would seem the .45acp is the clear winner. However, if one removes the FMJ and JSP (which don't typically expand at handgun velocities) loads from the 10mm data set, those average are almost identical to the .45acp.

But then there's the barrel length difference to consider, not only because it gives one cartridge an advantage, but also because some bullets are not designed to expand at the reduced velocities shorter barrel may produce. In both cases the disadvantage goes to the. 45acp. But then we could also consider the anemic 10mm loads as a problem. Yes those loads exist, but they're a lot closer to .40S&W than 10mm. Basically, if one were trying to create an experiment for a fair comparison between cartridges, they'd be wise to not start from here.

The lucky Gunner gel testing is useful to me because I can see what expansion of a particular projectile looks like at a given velocity. And I can see what sort of velocities certain loads are likely to produce for what barrel lengths. One more thing I appreciate is the slow motion video of the temporary cavity expansion. I like to see the comparisons in temporary cavity between loads, just as a qualitative reference of energy transfer. So it has its uses.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

The median expansion and penetration of every caliber has been on Lucky Gunners website for years. They have tested LOTS of ammo in clear gel in every major caliber.

Unfortunately, Lucky Gunner used Clear Gelatin.

JHP bullets do not perform the same in Clear Gelatin as they do in flesh and in properly prepared and calibrated Type 250A ordnance gelatin.

JHP bullets penetrate deeper, sometimes as much as 6-inches deeper, in Clear Gelatin than in flesh and in Type 250A ordnance gelatin.

As a result, Lucky Gunner’s data cannot be relied upon to accurately reflect terminal performance of any given cartridge.

Ballistic gel isn't flesh, it doesn't have varying degrees of thickness and fluid. It doesn't have blood and muscle and bone.

Properly prepared and calibrated Type 250A ordnance gelatin is the only realistic soft tissue simulant that has been thoroughly verified and validated against human soft tissues. Type 250A ordnance gelatin provides the same resistance to bullet penetration as typical soft tissues.

Bone CAN be included in Type 250A ordnance gelatin tests, and this has been performed by many different researchers and agencies, usually to reproduce the circumstances of actual shootings for forensic investigations. Tests have shown that when the circumstances of a particular real world gunshot wound are accurately reproduced (including the specific bone(s) involved), then the results depicted in ordnance gelatin accurately match the real world gunshot wound.

Properly made 10% ballistic gelatin provides a good analog for human flesh in terms of AVERAGE penetration figures. It doesn't factor in bones or skin so it's not perfect.

The only time skin is a factor is when a bullet is attempting to exit the body. Skin stretches, like a trampoline, and can prevent the bullet from exiting. Testing has shown that skin can present as much as 4-inches of penetration resistance when a bullet is attempting to exit the body and the skin at the exit point isn’t in contact with something. When a bullet exits it usually stretches skin to the point of tearing. The flaps of torn skin can usually be folded back into place to reveal no missing skin or conspicuous bullet hole.

Skin is crushed and disintegrated just like any other soft tissue at the point of entry. At entry, skin resistance to penetration is negligible because it's shored by other body structures.

Clear gel is something different. It does not replicate 10% ballistic gelatin performance. One can expect to see deeper penetration figures in clear gel, but it's not clear that it's possible to convert between penetration figures as the differences in penetration can vary significantly. One test showed that a .380ACP loading penetrated almost a third deeper (on average) in clear gel than ballistics gel while a .357SIG loading only penetrated about 3% deeper (on average) in the clear gel.

Even proponents of the value of testing in ballistics gel should be wary of figures derived from clear gel testing.

BINGO!

I shot a deer with a 10mm 155 XTP and a bullet that expands to ~.65 in gel made 1 1/4'' holes in tissue and unlike the doctors who "can't tell a difference" I documented with pics and units of measure rather than anecdotal generalization.

When you toss a rock into a pool of water it creates a splash. Likewise, when a bullet strikes and penetrates soft tissues, which are mostly water, it creates a splash in the tissues.

Properly prepared and calibrated Type 250A ordnance gelatin is 90% water.

The splash in soft tissues is called the temporary cavity.

Whether or not soft tissues are damaged by the temporary cavity depends entirely on how elastic they are.

Elastic soft tissues - such as muscle, lung, bowel, nerve, and vessels - can easily stretch and withstand the insult of temporary cavitation with little serious damage.

Non-elastic soft tissues - liver, kidney, pancreas, spleen, and brain - can be seriously damaged by the temporary cavity. Where these tissues are located along the wound track affects the amount of damage they may suffer.

Local anatomy, how tightly elastic tissues are bound to other structures (e.g., intercostal tissues), and the size of the structure (e.g., the size of muscles of the heart) all play a role in how much damage is produced by the temporary cavity.

The HOWs and WHYs are things one needs to know and consider when examining gunshot wound trauma to understand exactly what happened.

COL Martin L. Fackler, M.D., who developed the Type 250A ordnance gelatin test protocol said, "The field is the ultimate laboratory."

 

[fastbolt]

Unfortunately, Lucky Gunner used Clear Gelatin.

JHP bullets do not perform the same in Clear Gelatin as they do in flesh and in properly prepared and calibrated Type 250A ordnance gelatin.

JHP bullets penetrate deeper, sometimes as much as 6-inches deeper, in Clear Gelatin than in flesh and in Type 250A ordnance gelatin.

As a result, Lucky Gunner’s data cannot be relied upon to accurately reflect terminal performance of any given cartridge.



Properly prepared and calibrated Type 250A ordnance gelatin is the only realistic soft tissue simulant that has been thoroughly verified and validated against human soft tissues. Type 250A ordnance gelatin provides the same resistance to bullet penetration as typical soft tissues.

Bone CAN be included in Type 250A ordnance gelatin tests, and this has been performed by many different researchers and agencies, usually to reproduce the circumstances of actual shootings for forensic investigations. Tests have shown that when the circumstances of a particular real world gunshot wound are accurately reproduced (including the specific bone(s) involved), then the results depicted in ordnance gelatin accurately match the real world gunshot wound.



The only time skin is a factor is when a bullet is attempting to exit the body. Skin stretches, like a trampoline, and can prevent the bullet from exiting. Testing has shown that skin can present as much as 4-inches of penetration resistance when a bullet is attempting to exit the body and the skin at the exit point isn’t in contact with something. When a bullet exits it usually stretches skin to the point of tearing. The flaps of torn skin can usually be folded back into place to reveal no missing skin or conspicuous bullet hole.

Skin is crushed and disintegrated just like any other soft tissue at the point of entry. At entry, skin resistance to penetration is negligible because it's shored by other body structures.



BINGO!



When you toss a rock into a pool of water it creates a splash. Likewise, when a bullet strikes and penetrates soft tissues, which are mostly water, it creates a splash in the tissues.

Properly prepared and calibrated Type 250A ordnance gelatin is 90% water.

The splash in soft tissues is called the temporary cavity.

Whether or not soft tissues are damaged by the temporary cavity depends entirely on how elastic they are.

Elastic soft tissues - such as muscle, lung, bowel, nerve, and vessels - can easily stretch and withstand the insult of temporary cavitation with little serious damage.

Non-elastic soft tissues - liver, kidney, pancreas, spleen, and brain - can be seriously damaged by the temporary cavity. Where these tissues are located along the wound track affects the amount of damage they may suffer.

Local anatomy, how tightly elastic tissues are bound to other structures (e.g., intercostal tissues), and the size of the structure (e.g., the size of muscles of the heart) all play a role in how much damage is produced by the temporary cavity.

The HOWs and WHYs are things one needs to know and consider when examining gunshot wound trauma to understand exactly what happened.

COL Martin L. Fackler, M.D., who developed the Type 250A ordnance gelatin test protocol said, "The field is the ultimate laboratory."

You hit most of the salient points to consider.

Yep, anything coming from the lab (meaning the strictest testing protocols done to rigorous standards) is still going to have to be balanced against 'street results'. And street results can easily vary not only due to specific anatomical shot placement, but the angle (presentation) of the shot placement.

Informal 'testing', done with the less expensive (and less time consuming prep work) synthetic gel mediums, can still be entertaining and interesting to a lot of shooting enthusiasts, though. I sometimes look at it, if there's no better testing to be found, but consider it as an overly optimistic, best-case hope and guess.

I also consider that attention to, and emphasis on, being able to obtain better shot placement is likely going to be a better goal in the real world than trying to divine any perceived subtle nuances of measured exp/pen testing in test mediums.

 

[JohnKSa]

The only time skin is a factor is when a bullet is attempting to exit the body. Skin stretches, like a trampoline, and can prevent the bullet from exiting. Testing has shown that skin can present as much as 4-inches of penetration resistance when a bullet is attempting to exit the body and the skin at the exit point isn’t in contact with something.

Correct. So, for example, if a bullet hits an arm, exits it unshored and then goes into the chest, that exit could "burn" up to 4" of the bullet's penetration capability which is a very different picture than would be provided by, for example, placing an extra gel block behind the first one to try to get a picture of how much penetration might result from an exit/re-entry.

 

[Hartkopf]

Correct. So, for example, if a bullet hits an arm, exits it unshored and then goes into the chest, that exit could "burn" up to 4" of the bullet's penetration capability which is a very different picture than would be provided by, for example, placing an extra gel block behind the first one to try to get a picture of how much penetration might result from an exit/re-entry.

So for what little it would be worth (4”) in a terrible, know your going to be shot situation, arms need to be between you and the shooter. It sounds almost silly to consider but I have once heard an account years ago of a man basically being saved by his arms absorbing most of the shots. No word on what caliber he was shot with though.