Lucky Gunner Gel Test Median Results by Caliber

I don't think it's something you can easily plan for. Arms are small compared to torsos and to get the full benefit of the exit "penetration" you'd need to keep your arms away from your torso. If the arms are against the torso then it's a shored exit and you'd only get the benefit of however much arm flesh & bone the bullet went through. I guess every little bit helps.

The good thing is that if you are using your sights, then your arms and gun are already in front of you.
 
There's all of 4.8mm difference between biggest expansion to smallest.

For perspective A Minute of Arc at 25 yards is around 6-7mm.

Most ER docs cannot distinguish between handgun wound channels (except on TV, where they can know the pistol was a Lorcin fired at 7.2 meters by a left-handed shooter 1.62m tall at 1535 hours exactly). And, on average, 5 of 6 pistol GSW victims who arrive alive at the ER leave alive.

"We" make engineering-level assessments, to two decimal places, on what bullets doe to gel blocks, when what really matters is how consistently you can get bullets into a 5cm circle at 25 meters (as in ±2.5cm at that distance). And, that's accuracy that's hard to train to in high-stress situations.
 
Maybe I am coming in late.
Real gelatin good, Cleargel bad, why?
They don't give the same penetration but did the FBI calibrate gelatin vs felon to start with?
 
Clear gel is not bad, per se, but it's not going to give you accurate results compared to 10% ballistic gelatin, which is the standard.

The army was using ballistic gel before the FBI started using it, and I don't think that the army was necessarily the first to use it. I have seen articles correlating penetration in ballistic gel to tissue and the upshot was that it was a good analog for the purposes of determining penetration in human tissue with the typical caveats about bone and skin.

By the way, Brassfetcher has a good article regarding the effects of temperature on ballistic gel. Good reading for anyone who plans to use it and wants to get results that will correlate to standard testing.
 
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Maybe I am coming in late.
Real gelatin good, Cleargel bad, why?
They don't give the same penetration but did the FBI calibrate gelatin vs felon to start with?

It's not really a matter of 'good' or 'bad'...it's a matter of accurately reproducing dynamically equivalent forces in a tissue simulant which is what a tissue simulant should do.

In order to reproduce the pressure that drives projectile expansion in human soft tissues, a tissue simulant must possess an internal sonic velocity, mass density, and bulk modulus that is as close to possible as that of human soft tissues (viscera, skeletal muscle, etc.).

According to Mast, T. D., ''Empirical Relationships Between Acoustic Parameters in Human Soft Tissues'', Acoustical Society of America, (2000), the composite mass density of human soft tissues is 1.043 g/cm³ and the average internal sonic velocity of human soft tissues is given as 1,561 m/s. Using the Newton-LaPlace formula, these two values can be used to provide a measure of the average compressibility (that is, the bulk modulus) of human soft tissue as 2.541 GPa. A valid tissue simulant must closely reproduce these quantitative physical properties in order to correctly drive projectile expansion and to accurately represent maximum terminal penetration depth.

There are only two valid human soft tissue simulants at present; 10% Type 250-A ordnance gelatin and water.

The respective mass density (ρ), internal sonic velocity (c), and bulk moduli (K) of 10% Type 250-A ordnance gelatin and water are very close to that of the composite human soft tissue profile—

Human soft tissues (composite): ρ = 1.043 g/cm³, c = 1,561 m/s, and K = 2.541 MPa

10% Type 250-A ordnance gelatin: ρ = 1.040±0.002 g/cm³, c = 1,513 m/s, and K = 2.381 MPa

Water: ρ = 0.999972±0.010 g/cm³, c = 1,497 m/s, and K = 2.241 MPa

By comparison, Clear Ballistics Gel is composed of a SEBS (Styrene-Ethylene/Butylene-Styrene) polymer that is plasticized with a transparent paraffinic processing oil (in this case, Paralux 701). The physical properties of CBG differ significantly from those of composite human soft tissues, 10% Type 250-A ordnance gelatin, and water:

Clear Ballistics Gel: ρ = 0.824 g/cm³, c = 1,434 m/s, and K = 1.694 MPa

Because of the significant differences in physical/quantitative material properties between CBG and human soft tissues (and the two proven soft tissue simulants), the CBG product invariably produces significantly less expansion and concurrently much greater maximum terminal penetration depths than seen in either human soft tissue or human soft tissue simulants as stated by @Shawn Dodson in this post earlier in this thread: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...dian-results-by-caliber.920565/#post-12662327

Anyone who is serious about legitimately evaluating their self-defense ammunition should avoid the use of the CBG product since CBG is incapable of rendering valid test data that reproduces terminal ballistic performance in human soft tissues. If we desire the accurate representation of terminal ballistic performance in human soft tissues, a valid tissue simulant is required. Otherwise, we're just wasting our time (and our money) with an inferior product (CBG).


Science.
 
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Energy arguments aside, I limit my handgun shooting to .22LR, .380APC, .38SPL and .45 ACP.
Total reason for this is noise.
I left RVN in 1970 with (what I thought was) pretty severe tinnitus after almost 11 months there in the infantry, Cambodia, etc.
After 8 years or so I took up archery and then muzzleloading in pursuit of Colorado elk and joined a gun club where we shot outdoors.
Later, I picked up a Bullseye league where we shot .22LR. .45ACP and .38 Spl Indoors, in an underground 25 yd range. Everyone used muffs or at least ear plugs.
I was good until some shooters brought in their 9mm to shoot in practice. I had to leave.
May I politely suggest that all those shooting rounds that generate 9mm, .357" or 10mm pressures try shooting them inside a small room or out the window of a closed vehicle, w/o hearing protection while maintaining concentration on your target.
I'd like to hear your reports,
Thanks!
 
By comparison, Clear Ballistics Gel is composed of a SEBS (Styrene-Ethylene/Butylene-Styrene) polymer that is plasticized with a transparent paraffinic processing oil (in this case, Paralux 701). The physical properties of CBG differ significantly from those of composite human soft tissues, 10% Type 250-A ordnance gelatin, and water:
Interesting information. I didn't realize that plain water is a better tissue simulant than Clear Gel. I guess the main problem with water is trying to get consistent measurements of penetration without making a huge mess.
 
May I politely suggest that all those shooting rounds that generate 9mm, .357" or 10mm pressures try shooting them inside a small room or out the window of a closed vehicle, w/o hearing protection while maintaining concentration on your target.

Well, we did have the cop who shot semiannual qualification with bare ears because he wouldn’t have ear protection if shooting at a felon.

I guess the main problem with water is trying to get consistent measurements of penetration without making a huge mess.

The Fackler Trough would give penetration in units of Ziplocks.
But I recall a substantial correction factor to get to gelatin equivalent.

ETA Factor is 1.8X greater penetration in water than gelatin. 1.5X in cardboard milk cartons. Plastic jugs beneath notice.
 
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I think what the numbers actually tell us is manufacturers did a very good job of designing ammunition to meet the FBI standards. The original conclusion was for a handgun round to be consistently effective, it needed to penetrate 12”-18” in calibrated gelatin and expand to at least 1.5 times its original diameter. It appears all of these meet that goal.
You mean to tell me, that those who have caliber anguish and fuss about both it and of concern to what others are using, are doing so for nothing?

I totally agree.
 
Interesting information. I didn't realize that plain water is a better tissue simulant than Clear Gel.

It is.

A strict technical approach to establishing the dynamic similitude of proposed tissue simulants to human soft tissues requires that their respective EOS (equations of state) match to correctly represent nonlinear impact responses to projectile strikes. For fluids and soft solids (that are composed primarily of water), EOS is expressed as the Hugoniot shock velocity (U). Hugoniot shock velocity is the velocity of the wave that is created by, and preceeds, a projectile as it passes through a substance. Hugoniot shock velocity (U) is a function of the material's mass density (ρ), a first-order derivative of the material's bulk modulus (K'), the material's internal sonic velocity (c) and the particle velocity (v) most usually expressed in the form of a linear function; U = c + K'v

Materials that have coinciding EOSs (equivalent or nearly equivalent intercepts and slopes) are taken to be dynamically equivalent to one another.

For the materials currently under discussion, the respective EOS are:

Human soft tissues (composite): U = 1.561 + 2.160v

10% Type 250-A ordnance gelatin: U = 1.513 + 2.024v

Water: U = 1.497 + 1.901v

Clear Ballistics Gel: U = 1.434 + 1.444v

Since the slope of the Clear Ballistics Gel EOS differs greatly from the EOS of the two proven soft tissue simulants and the human soft tissue composite profile, data obtained in the Clear Ballistics Gel product will deviate significantly from them at both extrema along any imaginable terminal penetration curve. The CBG EOS indicates that it is significantly different from the other three substances by a wide margin.

Furthermore, the Clear Ballistics Gel product introduces two other confounding factors that detract from its ability to correctly simulate human soft tissues.

First, projectiles tested in the Clear Ballistics Gel product tend to exhibit disproportionate amounts of terminal rebound. All projectiles rebound in both human soft tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin, but only at very small scales on the order of larger fractions of an inch. In water, because it does not support shear, no rebound occurs at all. However, in Clear Ballistics Gel, projectiles can, and often do, exhibit tremendous terminal rebound sometimes as much as 25% - 30% of the entire permanent channel length confounding test data in the process.

The 'rebound' phenomenon is demonstrated in this video by ShootingTheBull410: 45ACP vs 454 Casull - Raging Judge Magnum in ClearBallistics ballistic gelatin - YouTube

At 8 seconds in the slow-motion video, the projectile tested in the Clear Ballistics Gel product can be observed at its maximum terminal penetration depth (≈18 inches)
upload_2023-7-4_13-49-10.png

Shortly thereafter in the slow-motion video (about 9 seconds), the projectile can be observed having rebounded approximately 4½ inches rearward from its maximum terminal penetration depth of 18 inches, or about 25% of its maximum depth. The rheological properties of the Clear Ballistics Gel differ greatly from soft tissue and the proven soft tissue simulants causing the temporary cavity to remain near its maximum for an extended period of time allowing the projectile to oscillate within the cavity coming to rest only when the temporary cavity finally collapses. This unusual behavior obviously introduces additional significant error into the test result.
upload_2023-7-4_13-54-32.png

Finally, the Clear Ballistcs Gel product commonly exhibits behavior during penetration events that is never seen in either of the two proven soft tissue simulants or in human soft tissues. In this slow-motion video by The Wound Channel

Incredible Super Slow Motion Bullet Impact! - M855A1 - YouTube

—the collapsing temporary cavity, seen at 36 seconds, causes the volatiles from the Paralux-701 paraffinic processing oil used in the manufacture of the Clear Ballistics Gel product to auto-ignite under adiabatic compression (also known as ''dieseling'').
upload_2023-7-4_14-17-13.png

This effect is often attributed to sonoluminescence, but sonoluminescence is not a process that involves combustion. The sooty, black smoky residue being ejected from the projectile's point of entry in the Clear Ballistics Gel block is indicative of an exothermic process—that is, combustion—involving the volatiles liberated from the Paralux-701 in the Clear Ballistics Gel during the low-pressure phase of cavity evolution and is the result of the incomplete combustion of those volatiles during the ejection of the heated combustion products (as unburnt carbon in the smoke) from the block (as seen below).
upload_2023-7-4_14-26-2.png

The auto-ignition temperature of Paralux-701 is 358°F. This means that the temperature inside the collapsing Clear Ballistics Gel's temporary cavity is at least 358°F and is likely somewhat higher than that. This effect does not occur in human bodies that are struck and penetrated by munitions and serves as further evidence that the Clear Ballistics Gel product is not a correct/sufficient representative analog for human soft tissues of any sort.

I guess the main problem with water is trying to get consistent measurements of penetration without making a huge mess.

Since water doesn't support shear, maximum terminal penetration depths are easily computed using any of the three bullet penetration equations in existence. The WTI formula (1994) and the Q-Model (2012) are Poncelet forms both of which are strongly correlated (respectively) against 400+ and 900+ gelatin data across the spectrum of calibers, velocities, and sectional density. The m-THOR algorithm (2014), also highly correlated against 900+ gelatin data, is a heavily modified 1950s-era armor SLV (Survivability, Lethality, Vulnerability) equation that can also be used to predict maximum terminal penetration depth with a high degree of accuracy and confidence.

Fackler's conversion factor for the conversion of penetration depth in water to equivalent maximum terminal penetration depth in 10% ordnance gelatin, is a simple linear conversion value of 1.5x (IWBA Fall 2001 5;2 page 21) that, while well intentioned, introduces significant error into estimates of penetration depth since it treats the process as a simple linear function. It is not.

Best practice at this time is to use four to six ½-gallon water-filled paperboard cartons lined up and backed by old towels to capture the expanded projectile should it escape the test arrangement.

A mess? Kind of...but, in the summer, who doesn't mind a refreshing splash of water?! ;)

Keep those chronographs covered. :D
 
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First, projectiles tested in the Clear Ballistics Gel product tend to exhibit disproportionate amounts of terminal rebound.
Ah! The exaggerated rebound effect probably explains the surprisingly inconsistent results compared to gelatin. I was expecting to see a difference, but was not expecting to see one loading penetrate 3% deeper while another one penetrated around 30% deeper in the clear gel.
 
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Ah! The exaggerated rebound effect probably explains the surprisingly inconsistent results compared to gelatin. I was expecting to see a difference, but was not expecting to see one loading penetrate 3% deeper while another one penetrated around 30% deeper in the clear gel.

Yes, you are absolutely correct; that is one of two factors, John.

The other factor is the reduced dynamic pressure (a function of the test medium's mass density) at impact that results in mitigated projectile expansion and correspondingly/concomitant increased penetration depths.

:)
 
The difference between the expanded 45 (.731) and 9mm (.580) is .151". Only a little more than the thickness 2 pennies. Now, hold up 3, even 4 pennies and tell me that a hole that much bigger matters. I'll take the 2.2 extra inches the 9mm gave every time.
 
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