Lyman 49th manual, small rant.

[orionengnr]

Benchmark, Varget, Unique, HP-38, Bullseye, Zip, 700-X, Acc-5. Etc. These are ghost powders to me. Store owners get this funny look and shake their head saying I haven't seen any of that in years.

You don't mention your location, but I think you are talking to the wrong people. Powder is making a comeback most places. Do you have a Bass pro or Cabelas locally? How about a gun show nearby? I'm seeing all kinds of powder in the last 6-9 months, including the most/all of the ones you mention above.
Not as cheap as it once was, but availability is very good.
If all else fails, try Grafs/Powder Valley, etc. Buy enough to make it worth the effort.

 

[AnselHazen]

Yes, most of the powder I have obtained has been gun show. Won't get another till April /16. No Bass Pro and Cabela's is 2 hrs one way. They won't look in the cabinet, and the online inventory doesn't track in stock at the stores. I swing by on the rare occasion I am near but what is there aren't names in my load data tables.

That is part of the problem, Hazmat can be more $$ than a lb of powder. As a newb I've been reluctant to sport for a big jug until I know I was really going to like it.

 

[Sunray]

"...there are damn few bullets listed..." The only part that matters is the bullet weight. You do not require bullet specific data.
Biggest downside to the Lyman book up here is the $50Cdn price. The Exchange rate is currently about 38% so the $26.98 on their site becomes $37.33Cdn. plus shipping. sniff.

 

[snuffy]

I forgot to post this in the above post.

http://www.loaddata.com/members/index.cfm?CFID=47220082&CFTOKEN=16258533

This is the load data site, it's part of the handloader/rifle magazine group from Wolfe publishing. If you click on that link, you will see all the different calibers and gauges listed and the powders use. But until you pay the yearly fee, you won't see the powder charges for each load.

The loads are condensed from thousands of articles written over the years by writers in the handloader/rifle magazines. They also gather and print most of the manual load data. If you can't find the load you're looking for on there, it probably doesn't exist. IIRC, it's 30 bucks a year, about the cost of a new manual each year.

Gunshow powder is damned expensive. The last one here was early december, 5-6-7, I spotted an 8 pound bottle of WW-231! Almost couldn't believe my eyes! Asked how much,,,---2 bills!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IOW, 25 bucks/pound. Plus tax. I passed on that, found a one pounder, paid $26.50 for that + tax. Checked PV,powder valley, 8# is $133.75, but out of stock. IF you check early in the morning, you can sometimes get an order in to PV as it becomes a available. Yeah, you should load up the box with primers, and bullets to spread out the hazmat.

 

[Jim Watson]

Instead of buying every manual on the market in a frantic search for a "recipe" for your exact combination of powder and bullet, get a couple and a chronograph. Learn the methods of handloading with reasonable workups.

 

[MEHavey]

...get a couple [of manuals] and a chronograph.....

and QuickLoad.
w/o QL the OP will still flying blind -- even w/ having a chronograph.

 

[Mauser69]

Great Example of Why Un-vetted Forum Advice is Often BS!

"...there are damn few bullets listed..." The only part that matters is the bullet weight. You do not require bullet specific data.

In my opinion, this is not only WRONG, but it is damned irresponsible to make such a blanket statement to a new reloader.

While many bullets of the same weight can be safely interchanged, there are also many that can cause serious pressure changes because you do not know what you do not know! First of all, bullet composition (jacketed, plated, lead, etc.) makes a significant difference. Even more important is seating depth. A modern Hollow Cavity bullet is often seated at a greater depth than a same-weight soft point, due to the longer length that is required to offset all that air in the nose. It takes experience to know what bullets can be safely interchanged. You do all new loaders a huge disservice to suggest to them that they can ignore such dangers without knowing what they are doing!

There are some very valid reasons why we usually advise any new reloader to stick to only published load data AND stay away from any max loads.

 

[Nature Boy]

Always check what anyone tells you on the Internet against reputable, published data. From that you will figure out that there are experts here that know a lot about reloading and shooting and you will learn a lot from them. Likewise, there are others who's advice should be taken with a large dose of skepticism and caution.

 

[oneounceload]

Online powder maker data is the most current and best available.

Bullets of similar shape/weight should be GTG by starting low and working up.

LOTS of acceptable subs in metallic; not as much in shotgun.

 

[AnselHazen]

I am down with the different bullet thing, as I look through all that is available both hard copy and online I saw that I cant consider a lead flat point and a full metal jacket round nose of the same weight.

I want loads that will give me reliability and accuracy in my guns that's all.

Yes I expect a chrony will show up some day. Maybe even a LabRadar

Is Quickload really worth it? Does it have CFE-223 and CFE Pistol in it? Ar-Comp in it?

 

[35 Whelen]

I read a lot of things online telling me that this is a good manual to start with. Since purchasing this manual I have realized two things.

1.) If you were to pick out loads in this book and then go to the store to buy the components you will most likely come home empty handed.

2.) If you go to the store and buy components then come home and look in the book for data you will most likely find yourself out of luck.

For a manual that has been updated 48 times there are damn few bullets listed.

Nobody EVER listens to this advice, but still, for the 186th time, www.loaddata.com.

$29.95 per year and you get data from the following manuals (I'll use the .308 Win. as an example):

Accurate
Alliant
A-Square
Barnes #3 and #4
Hodgdon
IMR
Lyman #49
Lyman Cast Bullet Manual
Norma
Nosler
Ramshot
Speer
Swift
Vihtavuori
Winchester

and what I assume is every load ever published in Rifle and Handloader magazine.

Preparing myself to listen to the crickets...again....

35W

 

[AnselHazen]

Nobody EVER listens to this advice, but still, for the 186th time

You may have to reset the counter back to zero. I think right now LoadData is more my speed vs Quickload. How can I crab about the price when I have prob many years more $$ in stuff sitting unused in a box. I'll sell some of it and justify the cost.

Jeezum I hope you're sitting down.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Nobody EVER listens to this advice, but still, for the 186th time, www.loaddata.com.



$29.95 per year and you get data from the following manuals (I'll use the .308 Win. as an example):



Accurate

Alliant

A-Square

Barnes #3 and #4

Hodgdon

IMR

Lyman #49

Lyman Cast Bullet Manual

Norma

Nosler

Ramshot

Speer

Swift

Vihtavuori

Winchester



and what I assume is every load ever published in Rifle and Handloader magazine.



Preparing myself to listen to the crickets...again....



35W

I've had access to this database in the past.

Here's the problem, just like with a print manual all but a small portion of the data contained inside is out of date/obsolete



If you like up to date data the solution is simple. Buy hodgdon or hodgdon owned powders and use their FREE database. It does stay up to date and these days their lineup is so extensive and innovative you aren't missing anything from the other mom n pop powder manufacturers

 

[Slamfire]

I like my 48th edition. I still have my 41st Edition.



I have several other manuals and I use the web for suggestions. Then I take my best guess from all these sources and go do load development. I shoot over a chronograph, I lubricate my rifle cases so the bolt is fully loaded. I don't want parasitic case to chamber friction to disguise a maximum load. I want to feel sticky extraction when I have a maximum load. I examine primers, examine group size, and retest when necessary. I have been shooting five shot groups as a quick way to sort through variables, and the most promising loads, I go back and shoot ten shot groups.

A manual gives you a starting point, a bounded region of knowledge, from which to start your own testing. The results they got, are going to be different from what you get, because the test equipment is different. Someday we will have cheap pressure test equipment (I hope) and that will clear up a lot of misconceptions about pressures and loads.

 

[snuffy]

post 29;

I forgot to post this in the above post.

http://www.loaddata.com/members/inde...TOKEN=16258533

This is the load data site, it's part of the handloader/rifle magazine group from Wolfe publishing. If you click on that link, you will see all the different calibers and gauges listed and the powders use. But until you pay the yearly fee, you won't see the powder charges for each load.

The loads are condensed from thousands of articles written over the years by writers in the handloader/rifle magazines. They also gather and print most of the manual load data. If you can't find the load you're looking for on there, it probably doesn't exist. IIRC, it's 30 bucks a year, about the cost of a new manual each year.

Beat ya to it 35 Whelen!

 

[35 Whelen]

I've had access to this database in the past.

Here's the problem, just like with a print manual all but a small portion of the data contained inside is out of date/obsolete



If you like up to date data the solution is simple. Buy hodgdon or hodgdon owned powders and use their FREE database. It does stay up to date and these days their lineup is so extensive and innovative you aren't missing anything from the other mom n pop powder manufacturers

Out of date? If they publish loads from the most recent manuals, then how is the data out of date?

You do realize that Hodgdon's data is available at the Load Data site don't you?

You do realize that when new data is published in one of Wolfe's publications (i.e.- Handloader or Rifle magazine) it's added to the data on the site, don't you?

The site is constantly being updated. As an example, I logged in this morning after having not been to the site for a few days...less than a week, for sure, and the message on the login bar said:

"Welcome xxxx-xxxxx- we have added 55 new loads since your last login."

So in my opinion, it's the single most comprehensive, up to date site available!

35W

P.S.- Sorry, snuffy. I didn't see your reference to www.loaddata.com until after I'd made my first post.

 

[bscott29]

Hodgdon only lists 2 bullets for anything on their site. That is the problem with most sites and manuals.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Are the thousands upon thousands of loads from the Ken Waters days out of date.

Yes absolutely.

Like I said only a part of their data is current.

Myself I stopped buying data from bullet manufacturers. Bullets aren't what makes a load go out of date. Reformulations from powder makers do.

I haven't bought a bullet brand specific manual in decades. I just go directly to the powder manufacturers and that is virtually always FREE

 

[35 Whelen]

In my opinion, this is not only WRONG, but it is damned irresponsible to make such a blanket statement to a new reloader.

While many bullets of the same weight can be safely interchanged, there are also many that can cause serious pressure changes because you do not know what you do not know! First of all, bullet composition (jacketed, plated, lead, etc.) makes a significant difference. Even more important is seating depth. A modern Hollow Cavity bullet is often seated at a greater depth than a same-weight soft point, due to the longer length that is required to offset all that air in the nose. It takes experience to know what bullets can be safely interchanged. You do all new loaders a huge disservice to suggest to them that they can ignore such dangers without knowing what they are doing!

There are some very valid reasons why we usually advise any new reloader to stick to only published load data AND stay away from any max loads.

It's not wrong if you start with published starting loads and work your way up, chronographing as you go and watching for pressure signs. Any experienced handloader should already know this, and any inexperienced handloader should learn it.

Heck, for that matter you're insinuating that as long as one uses the exact case, primer, powder and bullet as is found in published data, everything will be OK. This is not so.

Let's not start unnecessary drama.

35W

 

[35 Whelen]

Are the thousands upon thousands of loads from the Ken Waters days out of date.

Yes absolutely.

Like I said only a part of their data is current.

Myself I stopped buying data from bullet manufacturers. Bullets aren't what makes a load go out of date. Reformulations from powder makers do.

I haven't bought a bullet brand specific manual in decades. I just go directly to the powder manufacturers and that is virtually always FREE

Out of date in what way??? How long after data is published does it take for it to become out of date? A week? A month? A year?

Just yesterday I was thumbing through my copy of Sixguns which I read a couple of years ago. I came across EK's .44 Special load of 17.5 grs. of 2400 under a 250 gr. cast SWC. He quoted a velocity of a little over 1200 fps. 60+ years later my .44 Special with 17.0 grs. of 2400 averages virtually the same velocity (1218 fps to be exact). Just a single example, but it seems pretty up to date to me!

35W

 

[R.W.Dale]

That's a tricky question and one that doesn't always have the same answer. But unique for example has gone through a few changes over the years

Some load data has gone out of date through modern pressure testing means where we know more about what's going on in a chamber than in the old days

It would best be discussed in a different thread.

 

[AnselHazen]

I made desert tonight. I opened up a Fanny Farmer cookbook that was over 40 yrs old and followed a recipe. It came out great and the family was delighted.
But Milk, Sugar, Eggs, Vanilla ain't changed much over the years.

Remember, a newb doesn't have a Chrony yet. They aren't at the level of reading and comparing a load from several manuals and taking their best guess. Safety dictates open the equivalent of Fanny Farmer and follow the recipe.

What I am learning echoes what RW Dale is saying. Powder is changing.

But I did just see a load for Hornady #2245 using CFE-223 in LoadData. Maybe things are finally catching up.

 

[GBExpat]

I like my 48th edition. I still have my 41st Edition. ...

What is the copyright date on that, SlamFire1?

Your 41 is in much better shape than my 45.

 

[AverajeJo]

I read a lot of things online telling me that this is a good manual to start with. Since purchasing this manual I have realized two things.

1.) If you were to pick out loads in this book and then go to the store to buy the components you will most likely come home empty handed.

2.) If you go to the store and buy components then come home and look in the book for data you will most likely find yourself out of luck.

For a manual that has been updated 48 times there are damn few bullets listed.

Yep it's useless. I have it and I agree with you.
For some sad reason the only manual that I found useful is lee. It has 30 times more data for every billet wait that Lyman or hornady manual. Get lee book and you will not be looking at any other. If you want some specific caliber I can take a picture for you, let me know.

 

[35 Whelen]

I made desert tonight. I opened up a Fanny Farmer cookbook that was over 40 yrs old and followed a recipe. It came out great and the family was delighted.
But Milk, Sugar, Eggs, Vanilla ain't changed much over the years.

Remember, a newb doesn't have a Chrony yet. They aren't at the level of reading and comparing a load from several manuals and taking their best guess. Safety dictates open the equivalent of Fanny Farmer and follow the recipe.

What I am learning echoes what RW Dale is saying. Powder is changing.

But I did just see a load for Hornady #2245 using CFE-223 in LoadData. Maybe things are finally catching up.

By changing you mean individual powders are changing? As in their composition and burn rates? How did you come by the assertion?

Newbies should invest in a chronograph up front. They're invaluable tools for working up loads. To quote John Barsness on this subject:

"If you compare published data for your bullets with your chronograph's results, then never exceed the published maximum or the published velocity, you'll be on safe ground and probably never encounter any traditional pressure signs."

Simply relying on what's published in a manual and traditional pressure "signs" is not a safe approach.

And FWIW, I rarely refer to paper manuals anymore, but when I do it's the Lyman 49th. I've been poring over reloading manuals for as long as I've been able to read and still have some of my Dad's from the late '50's and '60's. The Lyman 49th is far and away the most comprehensive I've ever read.

35W