M-1 Garand questions

[biggyfries]

I am no real firearms expert, but in my town some think I am an expert, and I was brought a M-1 Garand to have me look at it to see whats "wrong" with it. The owner says the action doesn't "cycle" right. He says he fires one round and the bolt stays shut after it fires. The owner says he expects the bolt to remain open after the shot so he can insert another live round.
I only know these rifles were designed to be used with an enbloc clip, eight rounds at a time, but I have no experience with the M-1, I don't know if there is a malfuntion or not. No one here has a clip. Can the M-1 be fired as a single-shot without a clip? Is the bolt supposed to remain open on the last shot without a clip?
This rifle appears in almost new condition with at least one or more refurbishments--its a Springfield Armory model, in GI condition with a canvas looking sling. It looks like new to me.
Comments?

 

[dmazur]

The way I understand the Garand design, the clip is part of the mechanism which involves the op-rod catch and the clip latch. When the parts are in their correct positions with a clip inserted, the bolt will lock open after the last round is fired.

However, if someone is loading a round directly in the chamber without using a clip, the bolt should lock back if the gas system is moving it far enough back to latch. However, if the shooter lets the bolt fly from the full rearward position, there is some danger of slamfire without the resistance of the clip feed lips. I believe it is considered prudent to allow the bolt to move half way before releasing it.

There is something called a SLED which is a modified clip which permits single loading with bolt lock-back after firing. I believe the SLED does not eject when empty and must be manually removed, and it acts like a clip to make single loading less likely to cause a slamfire.

 

[rondog]

Um, I may be wrong but I believe if you dropped in a single round WITHOUT a clip and fired it, the rifle should still cycle, eject the spent case, and the bolt should lock open. Not the best way to do it, and just asking for a smashed thumb, but it should still operate.

The bolt latches open on the back of the follower, the absence of a clip shouldn't matter. In order to close the bolt on a single round, you'd have to push the follower down with your thumb to release the bolt, just like if you were inspecting the rifle while empty.

So, I'd suspect weak ammo, a broken oprod spring, or (most likely) a worn-out gas cylinder or the piston on the oprod. If there's too much clearance between the piston and the cylinder, the gas will just blow past without cycling the oprod. Been there.

 

[dmazur]

The bolt latches open on the back of the follower, the absence of a clip shouldn't matter. In order to close the bolt on a single round, you'd have to push the follower down with your thumb to release the bolt, just like if you were inspecting the rifle while empty.

The operating rod actually latches on the op-rod catch, restraining the bolt.

http://www.garandflash.com/feeding.html

And when you push down on the follower, you are simulating the presence of a round in the clip, which will release the bolt if the tension on the op-rod catch is removed by pulling back on it a little (usually with the edge of your R hand.)

Inserting a clip (or pushing down on the follower) doesn't release the bolt if the op-rod is properly latched and parts are in spec. However, if the shooter has not pulled the bolt all the way to the rear, it is possible for it to hang up on the follower, appearing to be latched back...and this is one of the best ways to get Garand Thumb.

However, you are correct that, unless something is wrong with the ammunition or gas mechanism, the bolt should lock back, clip or not.

 

[JT-AR-MG42]

If the rifle locks open by hand and the gas cylinder nut is tight, it should function with standard ammo.

I would mention that if the rifle is extremely dry, you might add lubri-plate to the bolt lugs, the operating rod, and the receiver guide ways.
The grease aids function in addition to decreasing metal-to-metal wear.

If the lubri-plate is not immediately available, spray oil or break-free will suffice to check if that is the reason.

JT

 

[biggyfries]

Here's what I did today: I watched a very informative video on YouTube showing how to field strip the M-1 Garand. It also shows in detail the re-assembly. It was remarkably easy to do but a first-timer will need practice (like I did) but I am certain the reassembly went perfectly. ALL parts on this rifle look new, oily, and perfect inside and out.
So now I am to the point I want to insert a live round and try it. I have a NOS box of ammo labeled "-20-.30 Ball CTN lot F-N 65f-59" There is a F-N logo, it looks old, possibly military (NATO?) The headstamps all say F, N, 58. It seems a shame to open this box and shoot the ammo for testing a gun--this box of ammo was in a bunch of my dad's things I got when he died. I should do something with it--suggestions?
I have some .30-06 rounds I handloaded myself, suitable for deer-elk hunting. This ammo should work fine for testing, no?

 

[rondog]

Garands really shouldn't be fired with just any old .30-06 ammo, they were designed for M2 Ball with a 150gr. flat base bullet and approx. 47.5gr. of IMR4895. This round produces a safe amount of gas pressure for the rifles gas system.

If you shoot hunting ammo that's too hot or has too heavy of a bullet, the gas pressure can be too high and you risk bending the operating rod, or cracking the receiver when the bolt slams back into it too hard. The ammo you have may be fine, no way to tell. You may get away with shooting heavier loads, but it only takes "that one" to ruin your day.

And the stuff in the box - it sounds like you're not even sure if it's .30-06 or .308 (7.62x51 NATO). .30-06 is 7.62x63, but it's never been a NATO round AFAIK. They're not interchangeable.

Also, the gas port hole in the barrel needs to be centered in the gas port of the gas cylinder. You can't just tighten all that stuff down until the wood stops rattling. Doesn't matter if the handguards rattle, they're supposed to be loose. A lot of guys will tighten the gas nut too far and block the hole in the barrel. No worky then.

 

[PRD1]

The FN ammunition...

is almost certainly .30-06 M2 Ball type, and made for use in the M1 and other cal .30 arms by those post-war European nations armed with U.S. weapons or others in the same calibers - but is most likely corrosive, so I wouldn't shoot it in my M1.

It is not true that the M1 was designed for, or requires, M2 ball equivalent ammunition. At the time the Garand rifle was being developed, the standard U.S. rifle ammunition was the M1 ball, with 172 grain boattail bullet, and the rifle was also required to work with the original 1906 150-grain flatbased ball ammunition, of which the U.S. still had large war reserve stocks, as well as special-purpose types such as tracer, AP, etc. The match ammunition loaded and issued for the M1 rifle to the end of its career was a duplicate of the M1 ball, ballistically.

The M2 ball ammunition was developed in the late 1930s at the request of the National Guard Bureau, because the supply of 1906 ball ammunition was beginning to run-out, and the Guard units discovered that the extreme range of the new M1 ammunition greatly exceeded that of the earlier type, and was over-shooting the safety zones on some of their ranges. This was done, and the Guard liked the lesser recoil of the 152 grain flatbased ammunition (which was like the 1906 in that respect, as well), and asked that a large quantity be made, which was also done. This ammunition was required to function properly with the M1 rifle, which had been adopted as standard by that time, not the reverse.

At about the same time, it was realized that the original reason for the development of the M1 ball ammunition: long-range indirect fire with machineguns, was no longer considered so significant as formerly (at least in cal. .30, due to the more widespread use of the cal .50 machineguns, inherently better suited to that purpose).

So, in view of these factors, and because the using services agreed that the M2 loading met their requirements for cal .30 ammunition, and likely because there were some cost savings realized with the lighter (and more easily manufactured) bullet, the M2 was adopted as standard, and continued so to the end of the M1's service.

In fact, in WW2, the M2 AP ammunition with 165 grain bullet was often issued as the standard combat ammunition for infantry.

The important factor in ammunition suitability for use in the M1 (or other gas-operated arms) is not bullet weight, per-se, but the residual pressure in the bore AT THE GAS PORT, and it is true that many types of sporting ammunition do not meet that requirement. This is why suitable propellants for the M1 rifle are those in the medium burning-rate class, with IMR 4895 and 4064 being two such.

PRD1 - mhb - Mike

 

[biggyfries]

My box on ammo is definitely .30-06, it is definitely NOT .308--I only mentioned it in passing--even if it isn't worth much it seems a shame to use a virgin box of old ammo to test fire a stranger's gun. My handloads are middle-of the-road in every way but I can't remember for sure what powder I was using, don't remember the weight oif the bullet, but there is nothing extremely hot or unusual--just something suitable for your old Rem. M700 or similar. That's what I had.
The smaller (front) handguard does indeed rattle. I ignored that.
I can see some of you have extensive experience with the M-!, can you suggest what would be the next step in testing this rifle? I'm curious now to see if it may have been assembled wrong by the guy who had it apart last. I am sure it is assembled right this time. I am wanting to fire it now that I have permission to do so. On the other hand I would hate to screw something up.

 

[rcmodel]

but I can't remember for sure what powder I was using, don't remember the weight oif the bullet

That right there is a serious error in reloading safety practice you should correct ASAP.

Every box of hand-loads should be labeled permanently with what you put in them, and when you put it there!!

rc

 

[rondog]

I can see some of you have extensive experience with the M1, can you suggest what would be the next step in testing this rifle?

I'd suggest measuring the piston on the end of the oprod and the bore of the gas cylinder, to insure that they're both in spec. Measuring the bore might be tricky if you don't have a small hole gauge and a mike. Don't ask me what the specs are though, can't remember. Should be within 2-3 thousandths though IIRC. And the cylinder bore doesn't get oiled or greased, needs to be dry.

 

[dmazur]

Garand-safe ammo is the next step, IMO.

There are quite a few Garand-safe powders. If you can't get one, try another.

Load up 40 rds or so for testing, with a 150gr-168gr bullet.

For the next step, I'd try the "tilt test" to see if the op-rod is free from binding.

Then I'd order a clip online. Here's one source, which also carries a full set of repair parts for the Garand -

Fulton Armory

 

[P5 Guy]

Grease Not Oil

Grease all the sliding surfaces.
Operating rod spring minimum length 19 inches maximum 20.25 inches.
The operating rod has a slight compound curve, if it is straight it is wrong.
Piston diameter 0.525 gas cylinder inside diameter 0.532.
Check to insure the gas port in the underside of the barrel is clear of rust and debris Check the barrel at the splined section minimum 0.5995. Insure that the gas cylinder and piston are clean of carbon build up.

 

[dprice3844444]

make sure the hole in the barrel is lined up with the hole in the gas cylinder first.

 

[BrokenSailor]

Make sure the gas plug is tight.
if tight, Clean out the gas cylinder.
The problems you descried seem to be with the gas system IME.

If not, then check the extractor on the bolt.
Easily replaced if you have a bolt tool.

After those things are known to be working post again.
Get a book/dvd on Garands and teach yourself the system.
It is a very easy gun to fix.

 

[tbk5]

Good timely info for me--I just placed my order with CMP for one...

 

[wyofool]

CMP

My CMP order just went up on their "E-Store" so I should be getting it in a few weeks.

 

[Reloadron]

A little late to this thread but I will offer the following and throw in a few images. The bolt should lock back (open) following firing the last round from a clip and the clip should eject. In the absence of a clip if a single round is fired the bolt should still lock back.

Bolt does not lock open after firing last round:

• 
  Operating Rod Catch excessively worn, altered or damaged.
  Engagement Hooks on the Operating Rod excessively worn, altered or damaged.
  Follower Rod Body bent, altered or damaged.
  Follower Rod Op Rod Catch Actuating Cam excessively worn, altered or damaged.
  Follower Arm twisted or bent.
  Clip Latch frozen or blocked (obstructed).
  Gas Cylinder misaligned, deformed or damaged (drags or stops gas piston).
  Rearward Bolt travel insufficient to lock and that brings us to short travel...

That last one about short travel brings us to the gas system most of which has been well covered. If the rifle for any reason gets insufficient gas this will result in short travel or sometimes called short stroking.

With the rifle removed from the stock you should be able to manually, without a round chambered, be able to cycle the rifle. Manually pulling the op rod back should allow the bolt to lock to the rear as a result of the op rod.

This is an example of wrong:


This is an example of correct:


The op rod catch should look like this in a correct rifle:


If you can manually get the rifle to function correctly my guess would be short stroking. If the rifle will not manually function correctly take a look at the above list of possible problems.

Before I forget the above list was taken from The US .30 Caliber Service Rifles a shop manual by: Jerry Kuhnhausen.

Ron

 

[cfullgraf]

The smaller (front) handguard does indeed rattle. I ignored that.

Also late to the party.

The front handguard should rattle a little. If it is too tight, when the rifle heats up, it will affect accuracy and might cause other problems.

Make sure the gas plug is not one of the pressure relieving gas plugs (Shuster or McCann). These plugs were designed to permit using current factory ammunition that would have excessive port pressure and potentially damage the op rod.

These plugs have to be set for the particular ammunition in use. Change brand/type of ammunition and the gas plug must be reset.

Maybe not the problem, but if the history of the rifle since it left government service and the knowledge of the owner is limited, a gas relieving plug could be installed.

Other notes, yes, a Garand can be single loaded and fired without a clip and it should lock back after firing. It is recommend to hold onto the op rod easing it forward until it is about halfway home before releasing it. This is to minimize the chance of a slam fire and simulate the resistance that a clip would have provided had it been used.

An SLED, a single round clip as already mentioned, acts just like a regular clip when chambering the single round. Many recommend it for safety and preventing slam fires. I prefer to use it as it is easier for me to load the single round. Just snap the round into the clip, pull back on the op rod handle and let it go home. Lots of folks do not use a SLED and do not have any problems.

The SLEDs that I have stay in the gun after firing and have to be manually removed when done with single round firing.