M1-A .308 cases

[Magnum Mike]

I've had a Springfield M1-A rifle for 7 years now and I love it. I also load my own .308 ammo for it, and the cases usually last for 3 loads, then I have to chuck them because they tend to split at the neck due to the over-sized chamber of the M1-A.

I've used different brands of brass cases and I can't get more than 3 loads out of any of them, on rare ocasions, I can get 4 loads, but that's pushing it. Does anybody out there know of a good brand of brass, or loading tips that would help the brass last for at least 5 loads in the M1-A?

I use Winchester 760 and IMR 4350 powders, with Remington and Winchester primers, and Hornady A-Max 168-grain bullets.

Thanks in advance.

 

[30Cal]

Both of those powders are slow for the M1A. 4350 is outside of the "approved list" for sure. The normal ones are 4895, 4064, 2520, Re15, Varget. VVN140 also works well. 748 and BLC-2 if you like ball powders. What you're getting is high gas port pressure and battering of your oprod. Don't know if this is related to your brass problems, but it's not out of the question.

The standard load that shoots well in any M14/M1A is 41.5grs IMR4895, 168gr HPBTM, 2.82" OAL in a surplus case (use 168AMax interchangably with the HPBT)

NATO surplus is going to be the most durable brass. Commercial brass is going to get beat up pretty good in an M1A.

For more info on reloading and brass, check the downloads section at http://www.zediker.com/downloads/m14.html It's a little dated: Varget is very popular with those of us still using the M1A in Highpower competition.

Ty

 

[P0832177]

The M1A chamber is not oversized! A M60 chamber is sloppy, but not a SA M1A chameber. What you need to do is rethink your powder choices, ie as suggested above. Then you need to get some good brass, LC is the obvious choice. But, if that is not the case then I would opt for IMI Match brass from Wideners.

The next thing you need to do is get a RCBS Precision Mic. Set up your FL die so that your are setting the shoulder back about 2 or 3 thousandths so to minimize the working of the brass. This ought to increase your brass life.
I would think that if you were to choose say IMR 4895 or RL15 your service life of the brass would be much better!

 

[moredes]

I agree with both posts that precede mine. Your problem is probably more related to your choice of powder than anything else.

Federal GM has a terrible reputation for softness, but I can get 4 reloads out if it easily; with an X-die, I'm working with some lots that are on their 7th reloads (8th firings). (I use a paperclip to check the inside of the case wall on each and every case to insure that I don't have any surprises with my face next to the action.) Accuracy does tend to go downhill some with this many recycles, but I'm only shooting at silhouettes anyway.

Lake City (milsurp) as has been mentioned, is a great source for reload brass; it's much sturdier than FGM. Some M1A shooters will swear 3-4 loadings is all any M1A brass will tolerate, but that just ain't so, unless the reloader is loading maximum loads or using powders outside the generally recognized parameters.

 

[Magnum Mike]

Thanks for the tips guys. I'll try faster-burning powders. I also do have RCBS' X-Sizer dies, and they helped a little bit, mainly in the accuracy.

 

[444]

http://www.zediker.com/downloads/m14.html

 

[Mark whiz]

Like everyone else has stated.............those are just the wrong powders for an M1A. My best loads are with Varget, 4895,4064, RL-15, Win 748, & BL-C(2).

I've run a couple thousand hand-loaded rounds thru my Loaded Standard and have never had a split neck yet - and that's using about everytype of brass imaginable (LC, IMI, Rem, Win, PMC, Fed, S&B, etc). While M1A's are tougher on brass, I reloaded a set of Win Nickle-plated brass over 20 times before I retired them due to loose primer pockets..............but never had a split.

 

[Magnum Mike]

I loaded 20 rounds of .308 for my M1-A rifle over this past weekend. I used 43 grains of Winchester 748, Rem 9 1/2 primer, with Hornady 168 gr. bullets. The load was very accurate, but unfortunately it still didn't solve the problem of split cases, in fact I used new brass cases this time and I ended up with a hairline split at the mouth of 8 of them.

I would like to stay with Win 748, but I'll try BLC2 and IMR 4064 and see how they work. I'll also have to consider getting Winchester nickel-plated brass cases Mark mentioned in his message.

 

[30Cal]

Nickel plated brass has a reputation for being more brittle than the regular stuff, and I doubt it will solve your issue. Surplus brass is a better bet. It's thicker and a little bit softer (will have more give) than commercial. Beware of once fired mil-brass unless the seller specifically states that it has not been through an MG. What kind of brass are you using now? With new brass, regardless of make, you obviously shouldn't have split necks on the first load. If this problem has happened all with one batch of brass, you could just have a bad batch.

Do you see this problem with surplus ammo?

Are you FL resizing and if so, how did you go about setting the die?

There are a couple other possibilities. First is that your brass is being overworked by a hosed-up sizing die (too tight in the neck, but brought back to correct by the expander ball).

My next guess would be that the chamber is somehow way too large at the neck. Is there a story with your barrel? Is it a GI barrel or match? Unless you rule out some hickup in your reloading process, you're almost to the point where you need to have a smith take a cerrosafe cast of your chamber.

 

[Magnum Mike]

30Cal - The rifle is a standard GI model, and I use Remington brass. When I get new cases or reload them, I always run them through an RCBS X-Die, so I don't do the full-length resize.

I'll have to look at the die settings again to make sure the brass is not being over-worked. Like I mentioned before, I was able to get 3 loads before, but this is the very first time I ever saw the hairline cracks with the first load on some of the cases.

I'll try a few things, if they don't work, then I'll have a gunsmith take a look at it.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Lake City Brass

O.k. guys, I havespent the last twenty minutes searching for a place to buy this brass as I am about to start loading for my M14S. Can anyone provide a link?

Thanks,

 

[30Cal]

http://www.gibrass.com/

Wideners carries IMI which is by all accounts interchangable with LakeCity. While Lapua Match brass has some definite advantages, the same is not true when talking about "Match" surplus brass. LC Match has a cannelure around the case head, but other than that is no different than standard LC. IMI Match is also no different than the plain IMI (just a different headstamp).




For the M1A/M14, you still need to FL resize! The X-die only gets you out of trimming. You should be setting the shoulder back by 0.002-0.003" (but not much more than that otherwise you'll start seeing case head separations).

I used to set my FL die like this (before I had a case gage): strip the bolt. Size 1 case, and chamber it. With fingertip pressure only attempt to close the bolt. If there's resistance before the bolt is closed, then screw the die body down a touch. Size another case (not the same one--it will spring back differently than a fired case) and try again. Keep going until the bolt will close, then tighten the die down 1/16 turn more--now go and size all your brass (at this point you'd have to follow the X-die instructions for trimming and setting the mandrel). The case gage will allow you to measure the difference between a fired and sized case and you can accurately set the die correctly.

I also have to wonder if the X-die is causing your case splits. Perhaps you got the mandrel off center or something.

 

[brickeyee]

Try a batch without the X-die. Some cerrosafe will make a chamber cast for checking dimensions, but it is pretty rare for a factory chamber to be very far off.

 

[Grump]

Disregard 'most everything posted above. Sorry, guys, powder choice has almost nothing to do with case life, until you're pushing way past safe pressures--then it's pretty irrelevant anyway...

LC Match has a cannelure around the case head, but other than that is no different than standard LC.

Wrong-o! Whaddyamean by "LC Match"? Only M852 with the Sierra 168-gr HPBT has/had the identifying channelure about a half-inch above the casehead. M118 was plain. BOTH lacked the nasty primer crimp. LC "Special Ball" might have sometimes been called M118 (can't remember, never used much...) DID have the nasty primer crimp just like Ball ammo, and was *reputed* shoot not much better than M80 Ball. I do know from personal experience that the stuff with its 173-gr bullet carries out to 1,000 yards better than M80 (M2 in .30-06, BTW, goes subsonic and sprays all over BEFORE 600 yards!).

"Regular" LC is primer crimped and I avoid the stuff when I can. Decrimped enough in my time, and I'm doomed to decrimping too many 5.56 NATO cases as it is.

As for your problem, I would do the following:

1. Check cases for signs of longitudinal scratches on the outside AND the inside of the case necks, and buff the die and/or expander as needed.

2. Mic the case necks when resized but pulled out WITHOUT the expander being used. Then compare that with what the cases mic to when sized with the expander. That will tell you if your die set is working the brass too much. I'd have to search the 'net or re-read some reloading books to get the values that are "too much." Sorry, short on time and I forgot it. :banghead:

3. Consider annealing the case necks, as they just might be too brittle. Dig up the old mid-1980s Handloader magazine article on the subject--the old practice of propane, a pan of water, and knocking the upright cases over when they reach the first beginnings of a dull glow in a dim room is archaic and results in too-soft necks. Molten lead, and dunking the cases until they are almost too hot to hold at the midpoint, is the easiest-to-replicate low-tech method. If I were to get into it, I'd use the temperature crayon approach. Propane is fine, just don't overdo it. Temperature crayons are, IIRC, available at welding supply shops. The desired temp is somewhere between 650 and 725 F., again IIRC. :banghead:

My cases separate about 1/2-inch above the head before I get neck splits--as in, it's never happened to me. The M852 brass is on only its 3rd firing (2nd reload) and hasn't failed there yet. That's with Lake City, TW and USGI of various types, and my Federal brass is still on its first firing. Takes 4-5 loadings to get there.

Nobody mentioned the option of Schuster's vented gas plugs if our shooter prefers to stick with his slower powders. The only problem with the powder is excessive oprod speed and some parts battering. His chamber pressures and peak pressures just might be lower than with 748! An American Rifleman article on 748 as an alternative Service Rifle Poweder included pressure tests at both chamber and gas port. Surprisingly, 748 with the 150-gr Sierras was one of the higher port pressure loads, compared to 4895 and 4064 and GI M118 Match.

 

[BluesBear]

Are you using the standard X-Die or the small base X-die?

You are aware that tou have to trim your brass before you start using thwe X-die? The advantage to the X-die is that after you trim them the first time you won't have to trim them afterwards.

Something is very, very wrong here and it ain't your powder choice.

 

[thereisnospoon]

30CAL

Not trying to hijack this thread, but thanks for the link.

 

[Powderman]

I do not by any means consider myself an expert on the M1A, and I don't know if I have a different chamber than yours, but I have an M1A National Match, and I'm on my 8th loading for my practice brass. I have a bunch of Federal brass I'm working through, but I plan to get some GI stuff once it wears out.

My favorite load so far is 43.0 of 4064 under the 168 grain MatchKing. It duplicates the performance of Federal GM Match at 100 yards.

 

[30Cal]

Wrong-o! Whaddyamean by "LC Match"? Only M852 with the Sierra 168-gr HPBT has/had the identifying channelure about a half-inch above the casehead. M118 was plain. BOTH lacked the nasty primer crimp. LC "Special Ball" might have sometimes been called M118 (can't remember, never used much...) DID have the nasty primer crimp just like Ball ammo, and was *reputed* shoot not much better than M80 Ball. I do know from personal experience that the stuff with its 173-gr bullet carries out to 1,000 yards better than M80 (M2 in .30-06, BTW, goes subsonic and sprays all over BEFORE 600 yards!).

I forgot the M118 had the "LC Match" headstamp as well. When I said that it was no different than standard M80 brass, I meant that from a standpoint of consistancy and quality, there isn't a difference. I should have mentioned the primer crimp (BTW, gibrass.com will take the crimp out for an extra $10/thousand--a good deal IMO). If you see once fired M852 around, I personally would pass. I went through 2500 pieces of the stuff and my experience is that it's much less forgiving if you don't have your sizing die set correctly--I had a couple issues with it (see picture below). You'd better have a case gage if you're reloading that stuff. From an accuracy perspective, I get just as good results with M80 LC90 pulldown brass as I did with M852 LC 89 Match brass.

4th reload (nominal match loads).

I have to doubt that he's seeing pressure problems. Yes, 748 is on the slow end of the scale, but he's a grain or two under the typical recipes. I would start by getting some reloadable surplus ammo--shoot it and see what you get, then reload it and see what you get. Make sure you set the die to bump the shoulder back a touch. I think it's either a brass problem or a die problem, but there is the remote possibility that the rifle's chamber is hosed up.

 

[Magnum Mike]

Thanks for all the tips guys, I'm going to do some experimentation on the die settings and look at using a faster burning powder, like IMR 4064 or 4895. Last weekend was the very first time I've ever seen case splits at the mouth with the first load, and that only started when I used Win 748 for the very first time. It was the most accurate load though.

Somebody suggested using regular .308 dies, that's what I did before, I used the same die set I was using for my .308 bolt action rifle and that was when I noticed the short life of brass cases in the M1-A. That was also when somebody advised me to get the X-Die sizer die. The only difference I found with the X-Die I was able to get more accurate groups, but brass life was short, about 3 loads. I also noticed that cases do stretch longer in the M1-A and I have to trim them more often.

Like I said, I'll take everyone's advice, if they don't work, then I'll take the rifle in to have it checked. I did buy the rifle brand new in 1999, and I don't have more than 250 rounds through it.

I suppose 3 or 4 loads should be the expected brass case life when you shoot an M1-A.

 

[brickeyee]

"I also noticed that cases do stretch longer in the M1-A and I have to trim them more often."

Have the headspace verified with a set of gages. Should only cost a few bucks and take a few minutes.