M1 Carbine trajectory with Aquila 110Gr FMJ

[WNTFW]

Does anyone know how high it should shoot between 25-50 yards to be on at 200yds. I want to shoot a 200 yd match with it this weekend. I will be able to function test & sight in on 50 yds before then.

The rear sights are the milled with 1, 2, 2.5 & 3 detents. (not ready to file the fronts sights yet)

I searched the net and haven't found any conclusive info.

Thanks.
WNTFW

 

[Trebor]

Well, the bullet weight is the same as GI, so that should help.

Personally, I've learned that the sight settings on the M-1 Carbine may or may not correspond with reality.

What I'd suggest is sight it in at 50 yards. Make absolutely sure your windage is dead on. For elevation I'd sight it in with the sights set at 2.5. That's just a guess though, based on previous experience shooting carbines at 200 yard matches.

The only way you'll know for sure is when you get your sighters. Hopefully you can finish adjusting the sights after firing just a couple shots.

 

[lencac]

Get ballistics data from Sierra or Hornady or Speer and then sight it in accordingly.

 

[rcmodel]

Ballistic data won't help a bit if he doesn't know what 1, 2, 2 1/5, & 3 really translates too at 200 yards on his gun.

The sight markings are supposed to be in yards, but are they really close, or kinda close, or not close at all?

Only way to find out for sure is by using the sighter shots at the 200 yard match.

rc

 

[lencac]

RC it doesn't matter. This isn't rocket science. The carbine using a 110 gr RN bullet traveling at 1900 fps., which is the norm for this round should be 4.33 inches high at 50 yrds to be zero at 200 yrds. This isn't difficult :banghead: WNTFW don't make this more difficult than it is. Just sight the rifle at 4 1/2 inches high at 50 yrds and you WILL be where you need to be at 200 yrds.

 

[Kernel]

Remington Shoot! Ballistics Software:

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/remington_shoot_ballistics_software.asp

 

[WNTFW]

Gents,
Thanks for the replies. The only data I could find was for Non-Aquila and it started @100yds. I'm trying to get up to speed quickly.
I'm acheiving NPOA pretty well in all positions with the carbine. I have learned to trust my assessment on the first sighter. I've never been off paper though and trying to keep it that way.
This is a new acquisition for someone & I am just sorting it out. I cleaned up the front sight & blackened it today. The trigger is not bad and the bore/crown looks good. Piston wasn't free but got it cleaned and it moves easily.

Trebor
Windage is the one thing I can get done indoors @50.

Lecac
I''ll see what puts me +4.5" at 50 and give it a go.

RCModel
I know what you mean about shooting is the way to really tell. Hopefully I can get close enough to not waste the sighters. The M1 Carbine sights have a bit coarser adjustments than I'm used to. I can see the advantage up close though.

Kernel
thanks for the link

Thank you all for taking the time to help.
WNTFW

 

[DMK]

I just did a quick and dirty trajectory chart with PCB.

It looks like a 200Y zero will give you about 4.3" high at 50y.

 

[WNTFW]

DMK,
Thanks for doing the chart. Having a 25 yd point and the sight above bore info will help confirm things.

If I hadn't shot .22LR at 200 I'd probably scrap the idea of a M1 Carbine @ 200. I called a local HighPower shooter friend yesterday he said I'd probably have a better score with a .22LR. No guts on glory. I'm doing it for fun. An SKS may be next if allowed. An M4gery will be in the list also.

Thanks,
WNTFW

 

[DMK]

I guessed on the line of sight over bore. I'm at work and don't have my Carbine handy. If you have yours handy and want to measure it, I can adjust the chart appropriately.

An SKS may be next if allowed. An M4gery will be in the list also.

The SKS will have a much flatter ballistic curve, the AR15 even much more so.

 

[WNTFW]

DMK,
I shot it tonight. Front sight is .75" high. Everything seems to be fine.

I created a target with a crosshair & 2" bull. I then added horizontal lines 2", 4.3" & 4.5" I shot POA at 25yds and hit 2" high and 4.3 high at 50yds or at least close enough to feel it'll be OK at 200.

I have shot the 200 with a rental match AR but want to give the M4 a whirl. I will shoot the SKS and a friend will shoot an AK. This is partly due to the fun and curiousity of it. I've shot Garands at vintage matches. I like a little variety.

The range we will be at has a runway that lines up with it. In the middle of a string sometimes planes pass over landing or taking off. It is sort of weird because they come straight at you from take off.

Thanks,
WNTFW

 

[crazy-mp]

Post your results if you shoot the M1 carbine.

I am curious how well it groups at that range.

 

[DMK]

I shot it tonight. Front sight is .75" high. Everything seems to be fine.

Cool, I'm glad it worked out for you. These "computer simulation" charts aren't always exact, but at least they give you a general idea to get on paper at least.

The range we will be at has a runway that lines up with it. In the middle of a string sometimes planes pass over landing or taking off. It is sort of weird because they come straight at you from take off.

Think of how the people in the aircraft must feel!

I'm surprised the FAA allows a range that close.

Post your results if you shoot the M1 carbine.

I am curious how well it groups at that range.

I'd love to hear an after action report as well.

 

[WNTFW]

Outcome from shooting 200 yd match.

M1 was picked up a week ago. I cleaned it up. It was to get the cosmoline off and a first pass quick & dirty cleanup. I procured 100 rds of ammo. (no easy task) I reserved 75 for the match even though 58 is the round count.

I knew I would be up against the odds from the get go and the outlook grew dimmer at every turn. The trajectory has it dropping 8" between 175 & 225yds. When I signed up I made sure to ask if it was OK to shoot the M1 Carbine. Answer was "If you can keep it on paper". To put it in perspective the National Match for M1 Carbine is held at 100 yards.

I also just shot the M1 - no jacket, glove or anything

1st stage is offhand.
I managed a 65 out of 100. I had a 10, a miss and everything in between.
Sitting was a 55 out of 100. 10 and 2 misses.
Rapid Prone 50 out of 100. 10 and 3 misses.
Slow Prone 46 out of 200. 9, 8, 7, and 14 misses. (Smaller target)
Grand total of 216 out of 500.
I shot a 426 out of 500 with the LSA Rental AR on the same course of fire my first time out.

The trend wasn't going the way it should. And the target gets smaller, Literally. They use a smaller target. The sad part is nothing I did seemed to make a difference. You have to use a bit of Kentucky windage. The sight on the M1 Carbine uses detents for elevation set @ 100, 150, 200, 250 and 300. Windage is 1 MOA per click. There is no automatic bolt hold open - it has a pin that works manually. I just wasn't grouping.

The rifle ended up pretty dirty. So that may not have helped. I hesitate to blame the ammo even though better ammo may help. I have less than a 100 rounds through the rifle yet, so the best conclusion is it was me. If I own the 10's I own the M's. I think I could improve the score but how much would remain to be seen. It would defintely take some sorting out and even developing a handload.

Part of me says you did it once move on to other things. Part of me says do it once more after improving and practicing.

Bottom line is it was fun. The M1 Carbine is a slick little weapon and I had it outside of it's realm. It is a fine pointing weapon up close. Natural point of aim is easy to acheive with it.

Making it out to the match was better than not making it out.

Later,
WNTFW

 

[DMK]

I wonder if the Carbine might need a little tuning. CMP has a doc about that on their website:

http://www.thecmp.org/pdfs/CMP_Carbine_Notes_2007.pdf

When I first got mine, the stock was very loose and accuracy wasn't too good at all. I replaced it with a repro stock which fit much tighter and there was a noticeable improvement.

The sad part is nothing I did seemed to make a difference. You have to use a bit of Kentucky windage.

Did they let you zero at the range before you shot? I'm just curious about how close the 200y setting on the rear sight got you.

There is no automatic bolt hold open

The Korean 30rd mags that AIM and a few others sell have a BHO on the follower. I don't know if their 15 rounds hold the bolt open also, but you might be able to swap followers.

 

[WNTFW]

DMK,
Less than a week and a hundred rounds: I'd say yes it could at least be checked for tuning. I did see the CMP doc last week but just did what I could with the time I had.
I have to admit I hate to leave it where it is - I feel the need to do it again and do it better.
Either the ammo is not very consistent or my shooting wasn't. My shooting felt OK to me, but I always take the blame. I have become curious as to what can I do with a developed load. The fact the gun is so dirty after less than 100 rds is not a good sign to me. I'm going so see how dirty the bore is tonight. Some shooting at lesser yardages is in order also.
Good Idea on the follower swap. I have seen the Korean mags have a good reputation. I think the 15 don't have the BHO but not a big deal anyway. The bolt is so easy to run.
I got 2 sighters before each stage. I tried the 200 & 250 and adjusted my hold. I tended to be to the right but the elevation was all over.

While I don't own an M1 carbine personally I am becoming surrounded by them so there is a pool that we can compare one to another an get a bigger sample size on accuracy restults.

I have sorted out guns for people before and it is fun.

We had a guy in a gyro-copter or whatever flying over us before the match. Other than that aircraft activity was average.

After the match we visited with some of the guys & hit the Cabela's around the corner to see the empty spot where the primers used to be. On a side note Cabela's has pretty good hamburgers!! It is starting to become part of the range ritual to catch a Cabela's Burger.

As always we had some good laughs before, during and after the match.

Thank again for everyones help,
WNTFW

 

[crazy-mp]

Well you did better than I expected, no offense.

M1 sight had an effective range of about 70 yards (limited by the visual capabilities of the sight).

At 100 yards (91 m), it can deliver groups of between 3 and 5 minutes of angle, sufficient for its intended purpose as a close-range defensive weapon.

The M1 carbine was never meant to be a long distance shooter, it was designed to be a intermediate gun to bridge the gap between the 1911A1 and the M1 Garand.

I am sure somebody will tell me that I am completely wrong and you should be able to leave dime size pattern at a thousand yards. But all mine do really good around 50 yards then at 100 the groups go to pot.

That's just my .02

 

[DMK]

I don't know. I can't see any reason that a good condition Carbine with good ammo can't do well at 200yds.

I think the problems folks have mostly have to do with the age and wear on these guns. The newest GI Carbine is 65 years old and most I have seen have the original barrels and loose stocks.

The current ammo situation could be part of the problem too, unless you reload. You pretty much have a choice between Wolf and Aguila. If your rifle doesn't "like" Aguila, then you're SOL as far as accuracy is concerned.

 

[crazy-mp]

Winchester and Remington still load 30 carbine ammo.

Olin was making 30 carbine ammo, I guess they still do, I went into a gun store about 4 months ago and seen around 10 boxes for 11.00 each, it took me all of .01 seconds to buy that up.

I love my carbines, but the sights are part of the problem, the shooter cannot fine tune the gun like you would a M1 Garand or AR, well you can but it requires a new front sight and a file .

I wonder why there are no M1 Carbine snipers? Oh does that fall under the category of mall ninja?

 

[amd6547]

Many if not most of the CMP carbines have had barrels replaced post war. My CMP inland had it's barrel replaced with an Underwood barrel.
I get fist sized 15rd groups at 100yds with mine using just about whatever ammo I have tried, without trying hard.
The sights on the carbine are fine...quick combat friendly adjustment and a very good, fast aperture.