Maybe some of the skeptics in this post will be the first to die. We need to explore the mechanics of this. For example, for them to tell us of their experience, they will need an internet connection from the afterlife. Is that technically possible?
M1 Garand Problem
- Thread starter The_Armed_Therapist
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Maybe some of the skeptics in this post will be the first to die. We need to explore the mechanics of this. For example, for them to tell us of their experience, they will need an internet connection from the afterlife. Is that technically possible?
tark
Member
Slamfire, I have some 8X56 rimmed ammo for an old Austrian Mannlicher straight pull military carbine, that is steel cased and dated "44" It has the Nazi acceptance stamp on the box and it is loaded in in clips that can only be inserted into the gun one way.
Tried some the other day. Every round went off instantly and with gusto!! with a large muzzle flash from the short barrel. I shot twenty, with perfectly satisfactory results. I have several hundred left.
After much thought (OK, a little) I have decided not to shoot any more. Just too old. But it does prove that some of those corrosive primers really were quite stable over long periods of time, as was the powder. I pulled several more rounds apart. There was no evidence of clumping powder or deterioration of any degree at all. The insides of the cases and the bullet's bases were bright and clean.
I guess those Nazi's were good at loading ammo, if nothing else.....
Tried some the other day. Every round went off instantly and with gusto!! with a large muzzle flash from the short barrel. I shot twenty, with perfectly satisfactory results. I have several hundred left.
After much thought (OK, a little) I have decided not to shoot any more. Just too old. But it does prove that some of those corrosive primers really were quite stable over long periods of time, as was the powder. I pulled several more rounds apart. There was no evidence of clumping powder or deterioration of any degree at all. The insides of the cases and the bullet's bases were bright and clean.
I guess those Nazi's were good at loading ammo, if nothing else.....
I purchased lots of surplus ammunition before I found out that gunpowder has a shelf life. I also have pre war 8 X 56 for my M1895 straight pull. I shot some of the stuff and can't recall a problem. However, now that I know better, I am not going to shoot any of that stuff unless I pull the bullet and dump the powder. My face and my rifle are worth more than cheap ammunition.
These anecdotes remind me of the excuses I used to hear from smokers. They always had some relative that lived to 100 who smoked two packs a day. Heck, George Burns smoked cigars and drank liquor every day and he lived to 100, so I guess that proves that every smoker lives to 100, right? I knew a lot of heavy smokers, and most of them died in their 50's from cancer or cancer related illness. When they got sick they died quick.
Over the years I had pressure problems with old surplus ammunition and I did not know why. Now I know why. I have primer piercing on Iraqi 303 Ball, surplus 8 X 57, I had no idea of what I was playing with. Well now I do and I am thankful that I did not have a severe accident with that stuff. Last week I went to the range and shot 80 rounds of Australian 1983 7.62mm ball in my PTR91. I am making it my duty to shoot up old ammunition before it gets older. This weekend I went to CMP Talladega and shot up ammunition I loaded about 10 years ago. This stuff had mid nineties AA4064 and I had case neck cracks and the accuracy was erratic. I am no longer loading match ammunition in bulk and letting it sit around. I am loading within the month and shooting it up within the year.
smithman 10
Member
HXP
I'm going to post one last time on this subject and then quit.
What Slamfire has pointed out to us all is that powder gets old and its characteristics can change.
But the OP was concerned about HXP and his Garand, not other miscellaneous old cartridges.
And although it does seem like HXP is sometimes too long for tight chambers in the Springfield, that is not a big problem for most of us. I chambered some in two of my commercial .30-06 hunting rifles yesterday without any problem.
Other than that, no one, including Slamfire, has been able to produce ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE of HXP damaging a gun or hurting a shooter.
So I guess each reader/poster can draw their own conclusions about whether to use the stuff. I've made up my mind.
I'm going to post one last time on this subject and then quit.
What Slamfire has pointed out to us all is that powder gets old and its characteristics can change.
But the OP was concerned about HXP and his Garand, not other miscellaneous old cartridges.
And although it does seem like HXP is sometimes too long for tight chambers in the Springfield, that is not a big problem for most of us. I chambered some in two of my commercial .30-06 hunting rifles yesterday without any problem.
Other than that, no one, including Slamfire, has been able to produce ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE of HXP damaging a gun or hurting a shooter.
So I guess each reader/poster can draw their own conclusions about whether to use the stuff. I've made up my mind.
I can agree to that.
I have copied posts where shooters are reporting high pressure problems with their lots of HXP, reports that have been totally dismissed and ignored. What else is new under the sun?
Time is on my side, Greek surplus is not getting any younger, and as ammunition deteriorates, pressures climb. It is only a matter of time till someone, somewhere reports a blow up and/or injury with HXP. It is more likely that there are shooters who had problems, but like the original poster, and the majority of posters in this thread, they did not know that pressures increase in old ammunition, and therefore created false narratives for why their gun blew up. Like those 19th century ideas that yellow fever came from “the vapors”. Maybe it is something they don’t want to share because they thought it was something they did. Lots of accidents happen every day that we don’t hear about, because there is no particular law that requires the Nation to inform us. Just recently a celebrity was killed when his Jeep Grand Cherokee rolled down his drive way and killed him. http://jalopnik.com/anton-yelchins-jeep-was-included-in-rollaway-recall-lin-1782277820 Before Anton Yelchin died I never heard about injuries associated with Jeep Grand Cherokee roll back. According to the article hundreds of incidents, 41 injuries, but no fatalities. Prior to Anton's death, I will bet Chrysler made to the point to the NTSB that no one had been killed, so no one should be concerned about this little problem with their vehicles. Since a celebrity has died this little problem has blown up in their faces, how are sales of the Grand Cherokee doing today? http://www.jeepproblems.com/recalls/Grand_Cherokee/2015/ I read the recall was a voluntary recall not a mandatory recall required by the Government. Since a celebrity died people are now aware of this problem whereas before, who had heard of this. I am unaware of any Governmental agency collecting data on the number and severity of ammunition incidents in the civilian population. Therefore, to say that lack of records means lack of incidents is false, you don't know what is going on out there.
So, be the first to report your blowup and injury from old surplus ammunition, particularly from HXP ammunition, why wait for someone else to steal your scoop?
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lysanderxiii
Member
Storage.
How ammunition is stored has quite a bit to do with how long it lasts.
If the storage temperature gets too high the propellant tends to break down.
Yes, you have to be careful with very old ammunition. It helps if you have a good idea of how it was stored.
The_Armed_Therapist
Member
I finally have an updated, as I spent a lot of time at the range yesterday. In short, it is the ammo; but it is not for the reasons discussed here.
OK, so I started out shooting 20 rounds of commercial ammo. (Yes, I know I shouldn't have, but did it anyways) There was not a single problem with all 20 rounds of this stuff.
THEN, I put in a clip of the Greek surplus. The very first round did the exact same problem. The extractor ripped off the rim, and it got stuck in the chamber.
A guy at the range had an M1 with some of that Prvi ammon specifically made for the Garand. First round got stuck.
So, I am wondering what you all have to say about this. I'm thinking several things, but really need some help pinpointing this problem.
OK, so I started out shooting 20 rounds of commercial ammo. (Yes, I know I shouldn't have, but did it anyways) There was not a single problem with all 20 rounds of this stuff.
THEN, I put in a clip of the Greek surplus. The very first round did the exact same problem. The extractor ripped off the rim, and it got stuck in the chamber.
A guy at the range had an M1 with some of that Prvi ammon specifically made for the Garand. First round got stuck.
So, I am wondering what you all have to say about this. I'm thinking several things, but really need some help pinpointing this problem.
Homerboy
Member
Only problem I even as with HXP was one round did not fire once. Primer did not ignite. Never a problem loading or extracting in either of my M1's.
30Cal
Member
Still not sure it's ammo. HXP can run hotter than LC surplus, but it should still function if all else is good.
If there's a chamber issue (ie severe pitting or poorly cut), you will see impressions on the spent brass.
Pull the bolt out and hose it down with carb cleaner. I'm thinking maybe the extractor (or the recess it operates in) is gunked up and it's slipping over the rim under certain conditions. Even better would be to tear the bolt down and really get in there. There are a couple ways of getting the bolt apart/reassembled--check the youtube. There are cheap and easy ways, and there are very difficult ways of doing it.
The other thing I'd do by default is replace the oprod spring (w/ a standard GI one). It's tied into the function of the rifle in a lot of ways that aren't immediately intuitive. While you're there, you may as well do the clip latch spring as those also have a limited lifespan.
If there's a chamber issue (ie severe pitting or poorly cut), you will see impressions on the spent brass.
Pull the bolt out and hose it down with carb cleaner. I'm thinking maybe the extractor (or the recess it operates in) is gunked up and it's slipping over the rim under certain conditions. Even better would be to tear the bolt down and really get in there. There are a couple ways of getting the bolt apart/reassembled--check the youtube. There are cheap and easy ways, and there are very difficult ways of doing it.
The other thing I'd do by default is replace the oprod spring (w/ a standard GI one). It's tied into the function of the rifle in a lot of ways that aren't immediately intuitive. While you're there, you may as well do the clip latch spring as those also have a limited lifespan.
It is too bad you don't reload. What I would do is reload for your 30-06 with reduced loads and determine if your rifle is over gassed. I would suggest start with a 150 or 168 grain bullet and load 42.0 grains IMR 4895, which should barely function the action. I tried this in my NM Garand and I don't recall if it functioned the action. If your rifle is over gassed than standard loads with 47.0 grains IMR 4895 will cause function problems whereas lighter loads won't.
I would check the gas port size and see if it is the correct diameter. Various sources on the web say that 308 gas port size is .089" (#43 drill bit size) and the 30-06 is .079" (slightly larger than #47). If the gas port hole is oversized than the gas system will be over accelerated.
These are some web sites that should give you idea of what I am talking about:
Bill Ricca's Gas Port Study:
7.62mm US GI M1 Garand Barrels
http://www.billricca.com/7.62mm_barrels.htm
308 Garand anyone ?
https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=6&t=294970
The M1 Garand and Commercial Ammunition
http://www.garandgear.com/m1-garand-ammunition
I would check the gas port size and see if it is the correct diameter. Various sources on the web say that 308 gas port size is .089" (#43 drill bit size) and the 30-06 is .079" (slightly larger than #47). If the gas port hole is oversized than the gas system will be over accelerated.
These are some web sites that should give you idea of what I am talking about:
Bill Ricca's Gas Port Study:
7.62mm US GI M1 Garand Barrels
http://www.billricca.com/7.62mm_barrels.htm
308 Garand anyone ?
https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=6&t=294970
The M1 Garand and Commercial Ammunition
http://www.garandgear.com/m1-garand-ammunition
robhof
Member
robhof
My brother and I found several rounds of 1944 3006 ammo brought back by our ranger uncle from WW2 after he died, this was in the late 60's. We had a friend with a Garand and in the early 70's we shot up the ammo, some was even tracer rounds we found out as we shot it. Of course that was only 25 or so years and the ammo was carefully stored in an old barn! Not justifying, just saying, and we were uninformed teens them. I have also shot some WW2 brought back 9MM in my Beretta, with no problems and that was only about 15 yrs ago!
My brother and I found several rounds of 1944 3006 ammo brought back by our ranger uncle from WW2 after he died, this was in the late 60's. We had a friend with a Garand and in the early 70's we shot up the ammo, some was even tracer rounds we found out as we shot it. Of course that was only 25 or so years and the ammo was carefully stored in an old barn! Not justifying, just saying, and we were uninformed teens them. I have also shot some WW2 brought back 9MM in my Beretta, with no problems and that was only about 15 yrs ago!
A couple of blowups with WW2 ammunition, just saying:
Garand Blowup with WWII ball
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7870113&postcount=13
Garand Blowup with old US ammunition.
http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?p=1344088
Since ammunition only gets worse in time, time is to my advantage, for someday, I will be posting pictures and text of a rifle blown up with Greek HXP.
Garand Blowup with WWII ball
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7870113&postcount=13
Garand Blowup with old US ammunition.
http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?p=1344088
Since ammunition only gets worse in time, time is to my advantage, for someday, I will be posting pictures and text of a rifle blown up with Greek HXP.
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