M14 vs. Bar/ fnar

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I don't know about the SCAR, and since I'm not much of a fan of FA fire for anything except support weapons (both from prior inclination, and my infantry training), its FA capability is not an especial concern of mine...and completely outside anything this thread has been about.

Here is an overall good suggestion of using an M1A for home defense from immensely respected trainer Clint Smith. BUT he especially focuses on one aspect of the 7.62x51mm vs. 5.56x45mm- dramatically higher penetration through concealment- as a potential asset, and warns about using it in situations where less penetration is advised. He also suggests using a shorter version of the M1A for urban work, and uses a fiberglass stock to avoid the historical problem of stock swelling. He also advises iron sights on the M1A.

J
 
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Failure to recognize the M14 platform for what it was, is and will be is a futile attempt to re-imagine history and objective reality.

dom1104

I think people DO recognize the m14 for what it was, is and will be. Thats the issue.

Yes, people DO recognize the M14 for what it was, is and will be, but very few of them reside on this forum.





It sounds like FA fire or lack there of, on the M14 is not a concern to M14 detractors...
this reduces the list of shortcomings to one ~ the M14 is no longer being produced.
At least TACOM-RI has about 80K M14s that they can pull from to make M14 EBRs :cool:
 
internal inconsistencies in your posts lately astound me

Yes, people DO recognize the M14 for what it was, is and will be, but very few of them reside on this forum.

It sounds like FA fire or lack there of, on the M14 is not a concern to M14 detractors...
this reduces the list of shortcomings to one ~ the M14 is no longer being produced.

if you meant to imply (or appeal to authority) that the professionals in charge who know what they're doing recognize the m14 as lacking any shortcomings... the fact that "the M14 is no longer being produced" should tell you all you need to know
 
this reduces the list of shortcomings to one ~ the M14 is no longer being produced

Now, that's just silly. How do you expect to ever be taken seriously if you don't honestly admit potential problems with the design? And there are quite a few. Some are related, in usage, to being a full power cartridge as opposed to an intermediate one, such as the 5.56x45mm or 7.62x39mm. Some are related to it being a traditional wooden-stocked rifle, as opposed to a more modular design.

In the case of the first, sometimes it's a case of picking the right tool for the job. There may be situations where an M14 or M1A could be ideal. There are also situations where it would definitely not. Figuratively stuffing your fingers in yours ears and screaming, "La, la, la!" doesn't help anyone.

You like the M14/M1A. Yay. Shoot it and prosper. It may work just fine for many individual shooters. Just don't imagine it's an ideal tool for modern warfare, any more than it's an ideal deer hunter (though a Bush Rifle could work just fine for close hogs).

taliv, as an addendum, that it was also the general issue service rifle for the shortest amount of time could be added to that. But, cry havoc and loose the hounds of opinion! :D

J
 
It tells me and others that "they" made a big mistake and Clinton only exacerbated the situation.




Figuratively stuffing your fingers in yours ears and screaming, "La, la, la!" doesn't help anyone.

Then stop doing that.
 
totally different take on this.


What is the Cost of a "modernized" and "Marksmanized" M14 anyhow. with the required loadout of mags. Vs the FNAR. I really have no idea. Depending on how "modern" one needs to get.


I would assume polymer stock replacement is the only requirement?
 
whoa. I looked, and I am still stickershocked.

the "Modernizations" sure do cost.


Its like a AR-15 and 6000 rounds of ammo.
 
In this discussion the AR would be less useful.




Back to dom's question.

TACOM-RI pulls an old M14 from their stockpile and installs it in a SAGE EBR.
They add a basic Leupold Mark 4 3.5-10x40mm LR/T, Leupold rings, a SAGE
DCSB optic rail, a Harris bi pod and a bi pod mount.

The cost to modernize an M14 that was paid for long ago is very low.

All of these M14 EBRs shoot 1.5 MOA or better with these simple yet effective changes.
 
M14 - free
sage EBR stock = $700? I seen a few $500 dollar ones used.
LeupoldMark 4 3.5-10x40mm LR/T = $1500
Rings = $50 or whatever.
Sage DCSB = 219

harris bipod etc


Well I do see what you are sayin, the cost is low since they already have the rifle. Free Rifle does make a difference cost wise.
 
**What rifle would be cheaper and better out of these two; a customized chinese m14 build or a fnar bar platform rifle? chambered in .308 of course. What one is more accurate?**

Accuracy is "possibly:confused:" on the side of the FNAR; but you would have to pop a few thousand rounds in various conditions to get a properly formed answer.
***I personally like my FN-49 in 7mm Mauser***, but any FAL rifle would always be my choice for no other reason than the sheer number of $5 mags I have bought at various times.

The rest of you guys- put a lid on it; this IS called "THE HIGH ROAD" for a reason.:banghead:
 
:eek: You are not what I would call a savvy shopper.

I hope that you don't pay retail plus for everything else you buy.
 
(beretta, disabusing specious "information" is not leaving THR)

It's a bit humorous that we are actually, once again, comparing the shortest-lived general issue rifle with the longest issued one, as though the one briefly issued still had relevance as an issue combat arm.

(emphasis mine)
Stoner, a small arms designer working for ArmaLite, helped design and develop the M16 rifle. Stoner was a forward thinker who saw the application of new technologies and innovative ideas as the answer to many of the problems inherent in the development of the M14. Though not the originator of all of the innovations that became the M16, he was the talent that refined them and made them work.12 In many respects Mr. Stoner represented what the Ordinance Department should have been. His prototype, the AR-15, was also a rifle designed around the .223 caliber cartridge which was classified as an HVSC round.

While the early stages of the M14 had little input from the administrators of Springfield Army Depot, it eventually evolved into a rational rifle program that they defended in the face of overwhelming evidence against it. The M14 came to represent the tried and true ways of the past. It represented the thinking of a subculture that had grown from the days of America’s struggle for independence and placed a high value on marksmanship. Infantry leaders identified with the concept of the marksman. The accurate hunting rifles of the colonial militias had fired the shots heard around the world. It was a subculture that saw accurate, long range marksmen as a sign of discipline and martial prowess even though historical fact had demonstrated otherwise.
(Kern, online p 16-17)

In addition to experimentation and development of self loading rifles, government officials initiated research into the idea that a smaller bullet could produce higher velocities, with greater accuracy, and provide sufficient power to be acceptable for use on the battlefield. Testing in 1931 on a .276 caliber bullet that was fired from both a rifle designed by John Garand and one designed by the bullet’s inventor, John Pederson, encouraged the board to approve its use in combat. Moreover, the board noted that the bullet was better suited for self loading rifles than the 30-06 cartridge currently in service. Many felt that the 30-06 was too powerful to be fired from a light auto-loading rifle and that the .276 with its smaller powder charge would be a better fit for such a rifle.

The acceptance of a new rifle and cartridge demonstrated that there were some aspects of the Army’s culture that were willing to change. The board’s findings represented a rapid departure from the standard rifle that was already in existence. The only cultural aspect that was not challenged by the acceptance results was the culture of marksmanship. The action challenged other cultural beliefs, however, and these challenges resulted in the rejection of the change in caliber by the Army senior leadership. The marksmanship tradition was not the only influence to arms development. Economic influences resulted in the entrenchment of a culture of thrift.

Culture of Thrift
The main cultural hurdle that could not be vaulted was the culture of efficiency and fiscal responsibility...

Because of this culture of thrift, Army chief of staff Douglas McArthur decided in 1932 to decline acceptance of the .276 caliber rifle due to logistical constraints that would result from having separate rifle and machine-gun cartridges as well as the fact that there were existing large quantities of .30 caliber ammunition available and development of a new cartridge would make much of those stocks obsolete. He did, however, recognize the importance of evolving rifle technology and ordered further work on John Garand’s .30 caliber auto-loading rifle.

By 1936 John Garand’s rifle had evolved into the .30 caliber M1 rifle. This rifle would become the first semi-automatic rifle in the world to be issued as a general purpose rifle to a nation’s army. Soldiers armed with the M1 in World War II had greater accuracy and firepower than their counterparts on the battlefields of the Pacific, Europe, and North Africa. General George S. Patton’s observation that the M1 Garand was, “the greatest battle implement ever devised,”32 illustrated the popularity of the rifle. The affectionate regard for the M1 rifle that evolved out of its service in World War II resulted in another cultural pattern, one where many perceived the M1 as the perfect rifle despite statistical evidence that demonstrated potential improvements could be made.

Post war research into the effectiveness of the M1 and its .30 caliber bullet found that there were many misperceptions by soldiers about the rifle. Its lethality was not any better than the .276 caliber bullet that the Japanese copied from Pederson in the 1930s and used on American soldiers throughout the pacific campaign.
(Kern, online p 38-41)

The Army’s Ballistics Research Laboratories research into HVSC rounds in the 1920s and 30s continued to show promise. They discovered that a projectile’s lethality directly correlated to the cube of its velocity at impact. The importance of this finding was that increases in velocity had a significantly greater influence on lethality than did increases in bullet mass. With this in mind, great gains in lethality were possible by merely increasing a bullet’s velocity. Since it was easier to move lighter bullets at higher velocities, a reduction in bullet mass provided the increase in velocity that actually increased a bullet’s lethality. The ballistics research findings proposed that HVSC cartridges could produce greater lethality than the .30 caliber 7.62mm NATO round while at the same time reducing the combat load of the soldier and his logistical requirement
(Kern, online p 56)

In September 1961, 10 rifles were sent to Vietnam for testing in a combat environment with the Military Assistance Advisory Group, Vietnam. The results of this evaluation were very favorable for the AR-15 and the Army initiated requests for more rifles. American military advisors reported that the light recoil and weight combined with the ergonomic design made the rifle suitable for the smaller stature of the Vietnamese soldiers. The request for more weapons was made by soldiers in the field after having seen demonstrations by Colt in the Republic of Vietnam. From that point on, combat soldiers and the culture they represented dramatically influenced the course of the M16 program.
(Kern, online, p 63-64)

The favorable ARPA report and continuing pressure from the Air Force to procure rifles for security force use encouraged the DOD Comptroller to conduct a cost effectiveness comparison of the M-14 and the AR-15 rifles. The comparison was complete and the Comptroller published the results in 1962 which indicated that the AR-15 was superior to the M-14 in all respects. In addition to the technical aspects of combat effectiveness, the report addressed the fact that the AR-15 was less expensive to produce. The report criticized the M-14 by even stating that it was inferior to its parent, the M1, and the Russian AK-47.
(Kern, online, p 65)

The hearings and report by the Ichord committee, provides the historian a detailed and accurate synopsis of the M16 program and sheds light on the complexity of Army acquisition during the 1960s. The subcommittee met its charter to investigate the development, history, distribution, sale, and adequacy of the M-16 rifle. The committee’s hearings lasted from 15 May to 22 August 1967 and included members of the military, industry, and civilian leaders in the DOD. Additionally, they traveled to Vietnam and throughout the United States visiting training and manufacturing facilities in order to conduct field investigations. The findings were thorough and addressed many aspects of the M16 program. Much of the important information they gathered came from their visit to Vietnam.
During the ten day trip to Vietnam which started 1 June 1967, the subcommittee members visited Army and Marine infantry units equipped with the rifle and logistics support and maintenance units involved with the rifle. The subcommittee found that initial failures of the rifle by both Marine and Army units were the result of improper maintenance and lack of repair parts. The Army took action to solve the problem by sending technical assistance teams to Vietnam. The success of the team was evidenced in the interviews conducted by the subcommittee members of soldiers serving in front line combat units. During those interviews committee members interviewed hundreds of soldiers and Marines of which only two stated a preference for the M-14. The soldiers reported having had malfunctions in the past but that training in maintenance and the improvements in the supply of replacement parts and cleaning supplies resulted in few of the soldiers having problems with their rifles by the time the interviews were conducted.
(Kern, online p 99-100)


I am a military history student. "The Myth of the American Rifleman"* has been influencing upper-echelon US Army thinking since before 1900. This, combined with a desire to "pinch a penny" meant that the M1 Garand was fielded in .30 instead of the .276. The belief that .30 was necessary for long-range fire led to the M14, which was an abominable general-issue rifle (if you actually read the quotes, of several hundred soldiers and Marines with experience of both in 'Nam, ONLY TWO preferred the M14). The merest bit of honest research will show that the M14 was flawed all the way from inception.


*Even back at the beginning, as the British marched back to Boston from Lexington and Concord, the Americans fired an estimated 250,000 shots or more at them. IIRC, British casualties were 90; American casualties were 60, all from friendly fire. (If you just do a web search on this, you'll come up with a lot of misinformation, including that the British fired upon the Americans at Lexington Green. THIS DID NOT HAPPEN. After "the shot heard 'round the world" was fired, the British regulars performed an unauthorized bayonet charge, driving the Colonials from the field.)


Kern, Danford A. THE INFLUENCE OF ORGANIZATIONAL CULTURE ON THE ACQUISITION OF THE M16 RIFLE. US Army Command and General Staff College, 1994. http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA460822&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf
 
You are not what I would call a savvy shopper.

I hope that you don't pay retail plus for everything else you buy.

well its not that, its just I am not going to spend more than 5 minutes searching for prices on this subject :) :evil:
 
John, the military history of the M14 battle rifle is not finished, it's still being written.


.
 
AR-15s and M-16s are known for high accuracy, usually even before another $1500 or more is spent on them. The sole addition of an ACOG makes almost any M4 or M16A2 and later a useful DMR/SDM rifle.

As I've mentioned previously, when I deployed to OEF in '06, my battalion had a Connex full of M14s. I believe I saw *1* carried during my whole time in Afghanistan (10.5 months). I saw more shotguns carried...
 
H2O MAN,

When and where did you serve and what was your MOS? It's time you told us where all of your extensive knowledge of the M14s use in combat comes from. Where did you get your CIB or CAR?

It's time you stepped forward and gave us your resume. If you have similar combat experience then some of the veterans your are arguing with your points have some merit. If you are a hobbyist then you just don't have the proper practical experience to have such strong opinions carry much weight.

Time to put up or shut up. You may PM me with your experience if you don't want to post it publically.
 
JShirley AR-15s and M-16s are known for high accuracy, usually even before another $1500 or more is spent on them.
The sole addition of an ACOG makes almost any M4 or M16A2 and later a useful DMR/SDM rifle.
True, but AR-15s and M-16s are not the best tool for the terrain in AFG.
If they were the ARMY would not have made the urgent request for a 'longer-range' infantry weapon as they did in 2008.


JShirley
As I've mentioned previously, when I deployed to OEF in '06, my battalion had a Connex full of M14s.
I believe I saw *1* carried during my whole time in Afghanistan (10.5 months). I saw more shotguns carried...
The situation has changed since '06...
The M14EBR program did not really get off the ground until late 2008.
TACOM-RI is now building and shipping about 300 M14EBRs per month.





.
 
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True, but AR-15s and M-16s are not the best tool for the terrain in AFG.
If they were the ARMY would not have made the urgent request for a 'longer-range' infantry weapon as they did in 2008.

What year did you graduate Infantry School at Benning or the USMC School of Infantry? What personal experience do you have on the ground in Afghanistan or any other combat zone? How much time have you spent under a ruck in the service of this or any other nation? These are important questions you must answer so we can effectively weigh your response again those of people who do have first hand experience.

The situation has changed since '06...

Really? How has it changed? What TTPs have changed? Why do we need M14s more now then we did in 06?
 
(just for the record, jeff and John are the ones with experience. I shoot more than my share but my targets never shot back. I didn't want to misrepresent myself as a vet)
 
Disclaimer: I am an M14 fan and own an M1A myself.

I think the M14 was an ill-fated attempt to move forward with the standard issue infantry rifle, while retaining the perceived necessary range and power of the previous generations of infantry rifles. It combined the new features of selective-fire, detachable box magazine, short-stroke gas piston, and (in later examples) synthetic stock.

Unfortunately, these additions did not address fundamental problems such as overall weight of the rifle, weight of the ammunition, massive recoil during automatic fire, monolithic (as opposed to modular) design, etc.

The AR-15 addresses all of these problems, and only gives up a modest amount of range and penetration in return. It is a far more suitable weapon for a modern, organized military force. The M14 is and always will be a proverbial "rifleman's rifle," but unfortunately the lone rifleman is an obsolete concept in a modern military (snipers are a special case).
 
General Geoff The M14 is and always will be a proverbial "rifleman's rifle," ...

The M14 is a "Warriors Rifle".

115492wu8.jpg


The photo was taken Sept. 8, 2008 at Forward Operating Base Salerno in the Khost province.
 
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