M14 vs. Bar/ fnar

[Justin]

So, you've opted to re-post, yet again, the same photo you've been posting on this board for God knows how long, instead of actually responding to any of Jeff's questions?

Look, if you have the qualifications that make you an expert on military doctrine, you should have no issue whatsoever with proving it. In fact, it's the sort of thing that ought to be a point of pride.

Likewise, if you well and truly do possess insight into marksmanship beyond that of the average shooter, you should have no problem posting what competitive or training events you've attended, what your current rankings are, and how you've placed.

 

[Robert]

The M14 is a "Warriors Rifle".

So my brother, my best friend, and all the other soldiers that carried/ carry M4s are somehow less than a warrior? That is just silly. An over one year old pic of 7 soldiers shooting heavily modified M14s is not fielding a new weapons platform en mass. This in no way proves that the US military is going back to the M14. Sure squad sharpshooters use them, my best friend's life was saved by one while in Iraq but the M4 main rifle of the modern US military. And unless addressed in private Jeff White's questions have yet to be answered.

TACOM-RI is now building and shipping about 300 M14EBRs per month.

Source?

Btw,
I placed 18th out of 24 at the last Tactical Rifle Match held in Pueblo shooting my iron sighted FAL. Hit the 400 yard plate all 5 time. Guess I am not a rifleman...

 

[Jeff White]

The M14 is a "Warriors Rifle".

Really?? Tell me what your qualifications are as a warrior? What year did you go through Sand Hill, or are you old enough to have taken OSUT at Harmony Church? Parris Island? Sand Diego?

So do you have any personal experience to back up your posts or are you jst repeating thing you've read?

 

[LoneStarWings]

This thread certainly isn't "high road". What gives, staff?

 

[H2O MAN]

I share what I know

Maybe you could share what you know.

1. What personal experience do you have with modernized and enhanced M14s and/or their civilian counterparts?

2. Share with us all of your first hand experience with the modernized and enhanced M14.

3. Tell us when you first handled a SAGE EBR stock.

4. Share with us your experience with the folks at Crane, Troy, SEI, SAGE and TACOM-RI.

LoneStarWings This thread certainly isn't "high road". What gives, staff?

Excellent question!







.

 

[Justin]

LoneStarWings-

Which rules in the code of conduct are being violated?

H2O MAN has simply been asked some pointed questions about how he came to his claimed level of expertise. There's nothing low road about asking for verification of one's qualifications. Were anyone on this board to ask me to back up the claims I've made about shooting, skill level, or firearms expertise, I would be happy to volunteer such information, which would ideally allow anyone reading this board to make up their own mind as to whether I have anything useful to say on a given topic.

 

[Jeff White]

What personal experience do you have with modernized and enhanced M14s and/or their civilian counterparts?

Hundreds of rounds through them at various police rifle courses I've taught and taken, thousands of observed rounds at these courses. I can document the total failure of a Smith Enterprise conversion of an M14 a dept acquired on the 1033 program. The officer had to finish the course with a borrowed M4 because it simply would not run. Everyone produces a lemon.

Tell us when you first handled a SAGE EBR stock.

Probably two years ago, I didn't exactly mark it down on my calendar.

Share with us your experience with the folks at Crane, Troy, SEI, SAGE and TACOM-RI.

I only knew one person at Crane and he didn't work in that program. Owen here on THR also works at Crane but I don't think he deals with that program. Who do you know there?

How many Soldiers and Marines do you know who've actually used your favorite toy? Any? How much time do you have humping a ruck that makes you qualified to speak with such authority on small arms employment in combat?
I enlisted in the US Army on 6 Dec 1974 and retired on 1 November 2003. I was an Infantryman for 21 of those years. Concurrent with my Army service I became a police officer, first as a reserve officer then a part time and eventually a full time offer after retirement from the Army. I have used small arms professionally for more the 35 years. I don't post under a screen name as I have nothing to hide. Those are my quals, now it's time to put up or shut up. You speak with authority but it all smacks of what's printed in articles on military small arms or advertisers brochures. You have the audacity to hide behind a screen name and call out combat veterans whose personal experience doesn't match your preconceived notions of what thing should be. So tell me where you got your training and experience so that we may judge the veracity of your claims.

 

[Justin]

What personal experience do you have with modernized and enhanced M14s and/or their civilian counterparts?

Share with us all of your first hand experience with the modernized and enhanced M14.

Tell us when you first handled a SAGE EBR stock.

Share with us your experience with the folks at Crane, Troy, SEI, SAGE and TACOM-RI.

If you go about making claims about what does or does not constitute a "warrior's rifle" you're going to need to be able to back up your claims with experiences demonstrating how you came by those beliefs.

For instance, JShirley's comments about warfighting in Afghanistan certainly would carry more weight than anything I could say on the topic, because he's actually been deployed there. Meanwhile, I've never left the United States, so anything I have to say about Afghanistan is merely conjecture.

If it is your belief that your rifles are truly a "warrior's rifle" or are more suited to being issued as a general infantry weapon, it should be no problem for you to back up your claims.

Have you been deployed overseas as a member of the military? If so, did you carry a rifle? Have you carried a rifle in the configurations that you prefer for any great length of time? What is your experience with long-term durability, accuracy, and maintainability of such a rifle under adverse circumstances?

 

[LoneStarWings]

Attack the argument, not the arguer.

It seems the arguer is being attacked in this case, rather than the argument, and by staff no less. But hey, it's not my site, so carry on.

 

[H2O MAN]

You moderators are breaking forum rules by badgering and attacking me personally.

I have offered only personal, first hand information and information that I know to be true.

If you take exception to a point I have made, quote that point and ask for clarification on that point.


And if any of you think rifles are "toys" you need to find an air-soft forum to moderate.

 

[JShirley]

Nope, *experience* and *evidence* are being questioned.

If any poster repeatedly makes claims that do not appear to be supported over a length of time, asking for evidence or proof of knowledge about the subject is in order.

I'm glad if a shooter has a firearm he likes. I'm happy if collectors have firearms they like, whether they shoot them or not. Making claims that contradict every expert on a weapons system with whom I've spoken- well, I'd like some evidence, if you please.

 

[Jeff White]

H20 MAN,
This is no longer a request, you will provide your creds if you wish to continue to participate. Understood?

 

[H2O MAN]

Making claims that contradict every expert on a weapons system with whom I've spoken- well, I'd like some evidence, if you please.

Exactly what claims are you referring to?

 

[Justin]

I have offered only personal, first hand information and information that I know to be true.

Why is it true? What are the experiences you've had that led you to your conclusions? What situations have you shot such firearms under?

What evidence do you have that should compel us to believe what you have to say?

Why is it such an ordeal for you to show us the evidence for why you are right?

You see, when I read posts on this forum, I try to read them with the following questions in my mind:
-What information does this post contain that may be useful to the kind of shooting I do?
-What are the qualifications and experience of the person making these posts?
-How can I put this information to good use?
-How do the claims of this person stack up against what I have learned through experience?
-Why should counter-claims be considered, if they run against what I know?

 

[BullfrogKen]

A good portion of the Staff lead public lives here, at least public enough that we know who each other is, and most of the board does, as well.

When a Staff person makes a claim about something requiring specialized knowledge, the creds are right on the table when it comes to personal opinion, actual experience, or however else that knowledge and those preferences were acquired.


I guess some folks have gotten weary of you, H2O MAN, and have finally asked you to provide something more than a personal opinion to back up the assertions and claims.


Semper Fi.

 

[LoneStarWings]

Attack the argument, not the arguer.

So are we going to take this out of the TOS now, or what?

 

[rbernie]

Nobody's attacking the arguer - they are asking for substantiating data to validate the claims made by the poster.

Here on THR, we actually believe that what is posted in public has an obligation to the truth. We are *all* responsible for the words that we write. If somebody makes claims to experience or knowledge, they should expect to be asked for the source of those claims. Data that is second-hand or third-hand should be prefaced as such.

What we talk about here is not all sweetness and light. This is not the office cooler, where BS can flow as freely as the water. This is The High Road.

 

[LoneStarWings]

What claims are you guys looking to substantiate? That the M14 is a warrior's rifle? I see "warriors" using them, just like I see some using AK's, AR's, and HK's. I haven't seen where he's making outlandish claims about his own experience level. I'm sure he's just a civilian enthusiast like 75% of the people on this forum.

I have really only seen H2O make a couple of "claims" on this thread:

-300 rifles shipping monthly from TACOM-RI
-CMI makes ar-10 mags
-The M14 continues to serve out military and more of them are being modernized and returned to front line action in AFG.

Just about everything eles he has offered up has been an opinion.

Do you need a West Point degree and a medal of honor to have an OPINION about a rifle on THR? I realize you guys are just "sticking up for your boy" (JShirley), but in fairness, he does go out of his way to bash M14 type rifles at every opportunity and has done so consistently for years. Obviously he feels the need to balance H2O's enthusiasm, but they are both entitled to their opinions. JShirley is not the last word, regarldless of his position in the military. I could not care less what anyone thinks about the M14/M1A, I just think it's absurd that you guys would belittle someone for not having served in the military. It has been optional or the last 30 years, after all.

 

[Rshooter]

I am with LoneStarWings on this one. The moderators are being low road. Bust me from this forum but your moderators have been low road in the shotgun forum also.

BullFrogKen...I may not have twenty but I gave eight years and my health so I have the right to my opinion too!

 

[JShirley]

I don't "bash" M14s- I understand the concept was flawed from the beginning, which it was.

Compare:

I think I'm starting to get a reputation as an M14/M1A hater. I think they're beautiful rifles, just not what some American gunners fantasize they are.

To:

it's better than ever and kicking ass all over in AFG.

Now, sure, "better than ever" would hopefully be true after another 2 grand in mods, right? But "kicking ass all over the AFG" is a claim that many modified M14s are in use in Afghanistan today. It's the type of claim that rightly deserves some validation, and asking for it is not unfair.

 

[LoneStarWings]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M14_rifle

Few M14s were in use in the Army until the Afghanistan and Iraq Wars. Since the start of these conflicts, many M14s have been employed as designated marksman and sniper rifles. These are not M21 rifles, but original production M14s. Common modifications include scopes, fiberglass stocks, and other accessories.[11] In the mid-1990s, the USMC chose a new rifle for DM use, an M14 modified by the Precision Weapons Shop in Marine Corps Base Quantico called the Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR). It is intended for use by security teams (SRTs, FAST companies), and USMC Scout Snipers in the cases where a semi-automatic rifle would be more appropriate than the standard bolt-action M40A1/A3 rifle. The USMC Rifle Team uses the M14 in shooting competitions.

I do know soldiers that used M14's in theatre as DMR's as early as 2003 and speak favorably of the results. No, I wasn't there personally but I see no reason why they would lie to me about having used the rifles.

 

[dom1104]

I think, and nobody cares or should care what I think.

That is a rifles merit, previously decided to be a dismal failure, can be somehow transformed by the SAGE EBR stock... kinda flys in the face of everything I know about tacticoolness.

You cant take a mossberg pump, put an awesome stock and rails on it, and have it be some uber-weapon of doom.

a model 700 wood stock is as good as the as one with rails all over it and painted black.


H20 Mans rifle looks like it is out of Blade Runner, which I gotta admit it is cool.

But I dont think a new stock makes a gun suddenly amazing. at its core its the same gun.

but hey thats me. it IS cool looking I will admit, I wouldnt turn one down if it were given to me.

I would not however pay the price tag for that coolness.

 

[BullfrogKen]

I haven't seen where he's making outlandish claims about his own experience level. I'm sure he's just a civilian enthusiast like 75% of the people on this forum.

The difference here is the poster is trying to bolster his argument with the weight of "the military" switching to the system, which isn't entirely true, and using the claim that "the military" beefing up the system and pressing it into service suggests the M-14 is the ultimate in rifles.


To those who know nothing of the military's procurement and logistics system, that sounds like a plausible reason. For those of us who've actually served, we know the scope of considerations and choices involved in finding a better long range weapon to field.


Talking "about" what the military is doing is a lot different than understanding how that machine makes its decisions from the inside. There are few ways to say, "What you're offering as fact is a little bit of conjecture, anecdotal experiences, and personal preferences mixed together to justify a point," without getting a little personal. When the response to that is basically nothing more than, "Nuh uh. I know <insert assertion> ," those of us who actually do know call BS.

And there's no way that's done without asking someone to prove the assertion with some actual credentials.


There are other forums that allow the anonymous to make wild claims and use their unsubstantiated expertise as a bludgeon on others. That's never been permitted here. It's the reason I joined this place.

 

[Robert]

And Jeff's legitimate questions continue to go unanswered. The silence is deafening.

 

[LoneStarWings]

And Jeff's legitimate questions continue to go unanswered.

Just a guess, but I'm going to say that H2O won't be able to answer those for a little while on this forum.

With that said, I don't really see any legitimate questions in Jeff's posts other than belittlement for a lack of military service, which is completely optional in the USA at the current time. I don't think H2O's civlian status makes him any less entitled to an opinion, and can't see that he's offered up any falsehood's on this thread. I don't know why anyone would assume that H2O_Man was military unless he has stated it somewhere in the past and I missed it.