M16 rifle at 1000 yards.

[LawDog]

http://www.usarec.army.mil/hq/amu/O... Rifle Team dominates at National Matches.doc

USAMU Service Rifle Team dominates at National Matches
TRADOC Acting Commander presents awards

By Paula J. Randall Pagán
[highlight]U.S. Army[/highlight] Marksmanship Unit, Accessions Support Brigade

CAMP PERRY, Ohio - Service rifle shooters of the U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit of Fort Benning, Ga., might not have been shooting for Olympic Gold Medals, but they dominated at their “Olympics” - the National Highpower Rifle Matches. After conducting the Rifle Small Arms Firing School, July 30 to Aug. 1, the USAMU Service Rifle Team dominated this year’s National Rifle Championships, which were conducted at Camp Perry Aug. 2 to 15.

The USAMU Service Rifle Team received the awards from Acting Commander of Training and Doctrine Command Lt. Gen. Anthony R. Jones, who presented the awards at the National Trophy Matches Awards Ceremony. The team then conducted the Long-Range Firing School Aug. 16 and 17 before returning to Fort Benning.

The USAMU Service Rifle Team coached by Staff Sgt. Emil Praslick III beat 58 of the country’s best military and civilian rifle teams to win the National Trophy Rifle Team Match and receive the “Dogs of War” National Trophy. The USAMU Team dominated in this match, beating the second-place Marine Corps Team by 30 points. USAMU shooters were Sgt. 1st Class Norman L. Anderson, Sgt. 1st Class Lance D. Dement, Sgt. 1st Class Lance S. Hopper, Sgt. 1st Class Kyle A. Ward, Staff Sgt. Tobie L. Tomlinson and Spc. Brandon K. Green; Staff Sgt. Jason M. St. John was the team captain.

“Thirty points is a big win,” said USAMU Commander Lt. Col. David J. Liwanag. “The team shot in exceptionally challenging wind conditions and Sergeant Praslick did an outstanding job. The coach is responsible for reading the wind and giving each Soldier the correction in rear-sight windage clicks.”

The USAMU Team coached by St. John won the National Enlisted Men’s Trophy Team Match, which is fired at ranges of 200, 300 and [highlight]600 yards with the M-16 rifle by all military service teams.[/highlight] St. John’s Team shot a score of 1,970 points out of a possible 2,000 with 83 Xs out of 200 Xs (an X is a bull’s eye used in tie-breaking); the Marine Corps Team’s score was 1,970 with 80 Xs. Shooters were Ward, Green, Staff Sgt. William T. Pace and Pvt. 2 Calvin G. Roberts; the team captain was Staff Sgt. Daniel M. Pettry.

“This match was perhaps the greatest demonstration of technical skill and sportsmanship I have seen,” Liwanag said. “Sergeant St. John inspired his team to a superior performance. This was the Army’s number two team. In side-by-side performance with the Marines, who shot on the firing point beside them, our Soldiers kept their cool and shot an outstanding match.”
Praslick’s Team also won the Roumanian Trophy Team Match and the Herrick Trophy Team Match.

Anderson triumphed over 1,285 competitors to win the President’s Rifle Match, for which he will receive the President’s Rifle Trophy, a letter of congratulations from President George W. Bush and the President’s Hundred Tab. With a score of 297 points out of a possible 300 and 17 Xs out of 30 Xs, Anderson edged out Ward who took second place with a score of 297 and 11 Xs.

For the second year in a row, Anderson also won the National Trophy Individual Rifle Match with a score of 496 points out of 500, for which he was awarded the Daniel Boone Trophy. Anderson barely beat Tomlinson, who had a score of 495. For being the highest scoring Army (active, Reserve or National Guard) competitor in the National Trophy Individual Rifle Match, Anderson received the Association of the U.S. Army Trophy; he also received the 25th Infantry Division Trophy for being the highest scoring Army Infantryman.

The U.S. Forces Command Trophy also went to Anderson for being the active duty Soldier with the highest aggregate score in the National Trophy Individual and National Trophy Team Matches. Hopper was second to Anderson and Tomlinson finished third.

Anderson also took home the Mountain Man Trophy for having the overall highest aggregate score in the President’s Hundred, National Trophy Individual and National Trophy Team Matches; here Tomlinson took second and Hopper third.

[highlight]Green won the National Long-Range Service Rifle Championship for shooting the highest combined overall score with his M-16 rifle at 600, 800, 900 and 1,000 yards[/highlight] Green also took third place in the overall National Service Rifle Championship.

Ward won the Farr Trophy and the Air Force Cup and Green won the Coast Guard Trophy and took second place in the Farr Trophy Match. Pace was the highest of all non-distinguished shooters in the National Trophy Individual Rifle Match, in which the top 10 percent of the competitors earn 10 Excellence in Competition points toward their Distinguished Rifle Badges.
USAMU civilian Troy Lawton, who is the chief of match ammunition research and development, won the Members Trophy and the Vandenberg Cup. Lawton set a new record in the first of three 80-shot rifle matches for the Individual National Champion title by firing a perfect score of 800.
Acting Commander of Training and Doctrine Command Lt. Gen. Anthony R. Jones presented the awards at the National Trophy Matches Awards Ceremony.

(Formed in 1956 by President Dwight D. Eisenhower to raise the standards of marksmanship throughout the U.S. Army, the Army Marksmanship Unit is assigned to the Accessions Support Brigade of the U.S. Army Accessions Command. The Marksmanship Unit trains its Soldiers to win competitions and enhances combat readiness through train-the-trainer clinics, research and development. For more information on the U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit, contact the Public Affairs Office at (706) 545-5436, [email protected] or http://www.usarec.army.mil/hq/amu/.)

I can't believe that a 20 year "infantryman, drill sergeant, and M16 Range Instructor" has never heard of the Presidents' 100, or of the US Army Marksmanship Unit.

LawDog

 

[jungle]

To be aware of such things is as easy as reading. Here is the water, drink.

Thanks, LawDog.

 

[DawgFvr]

Never stated, "I did not hear" of either of those programs. Those selected for such programs are extraordinary marksmen and not your everyday infantryman. The standard marksmanship qualification in the Army does not go beyond 300 meters. Baisic Training in the United States Army nor Infantry AIT for that matter, instructs on marksmanshp beyond 300 meters. We do have sniper training and we do have marksmanship units and the weapons utilized are not the issued M16 by the way. I just stated my personal experience with the M16. So...are you saying you personally hit 500 meter targets and beyond with a M16...or are you just going to find exceptional, hand picked shooters in print and post? I have fired a M16 for over twenty years, and I tell you that very, very, very few soldiers can even think about qualifying for the teams you mentioned, let alone hit 500 meter targets consistently with the M16. Tell me you experiences please...not just what you read or day dream about.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

My first time ever shooting at 500yds I was able to hit a silhouette target within the first ten rounds and then repeatedly hit it using 55gr surplus ammo. Of course that was using a 3.5x ACOG; which made it pretty easy.

I've also done hits at 500yds using stock front sights and an ARMS #40 folding rear sight. This is a little harder as the #40 is not elevation adjustable; but it can be done.

If the Marines can take 163 teens in the 12-20 year old range and have them shooting well at 600yds by day three of a camp, then I have to admit I am a bit mystified by a 20yr Army veteran and former drill instructor claiming that everyday infantrymen cannot achieve that goal, especially when every Marine out of boot camp has to do 500m with iron sights.

Heck this story here describes two teenage girls scoring a 192 and 194 at 600yds in the rain at Camp Perry.

 

[444]

So...are you saying you personally hit 500 meter targets and beyond with a M16

Yes





But, I do have a lot of trouble with the wind.

 

[.45Guy]

I found the 500 slow fire the easiest leg of the USMC KD course. So yes.

 

[Correia]

And DawgFvr, and what about EIC team matches? Those aren't for hand selected, AMU, super shooters either. I sold a Rock River match gun to a NG troop from an intel company the other day, so that they could practice on their own time for EIC. And this person had only started shooting THAT YEAR.

And yes, 500 yards. Not that big of a deal.

 

[Brother in Arms]

I have never done it with an AR-15/M16 only a M1 and M1A but all the guys to the right and left of me didn't seem to have any problem. Hitting the target at 600M

There where also plenty of AR's there at the 1000 yard any rifle match I attended as well.

Brother in Arms

 

[DawgFvr]

Again, I am talking about the iron sights on an issued M16A2...not scoped. You that did it, you are better than I. As I previously stated, the Army's standard marksmanship ranges do not go beyond 300 meter targets...so, you must all be Marines then...and excellent shots. My hats off to you. I bow low to your superior marksmanship abilities. I never witnessed it in my twenty years of the Army, but then, I was just a common light infantry grunt ...sure could have used you guys in my units. You are good...no, better than good...insturctor material Anybody that can hit a 500 meter target so consistently with the M16 is somebody that I want to meet. Um, do it lately or is this in the far reaches of your memory? Time does wonderful things to those memories ya know.

 

[.45Guy]

Again, I am talking about the iron sights on an issued M16A2...not scoped. You that did it, you are better than I. As I previously stated, the Army's standard marksmanship ranges do not go beyond 300 meter targets...so, you must all be Marines then...and excellent shots. My hats off to you. I bow low to your superior marksmanship abilities. I never witnessed it in my twenty years of the Army, but then, I was just a common light infantry grunt ...sure could have used you guys in my units. You are good...no, better than good...insturctor material Anybody that can hit a 500 meter target so consistently with the M16 is somebody that I want to meet. Um, do it lately or is this in the far reaches of your memory? Time does wonderful things to those memories ya know.

Why thank you, I did hold PMI as my SMOS.

 

[LawDog]

Never stated, "I did not hear" of either of those programs.

No, you just stated:

???? Crazed SS, pray tell, how did you adjust your M16 sights to hit a 500 meter target? The barrel would be angled upward like an indirect fire weapon and you would need a FO. Come on....!

Angled up like a mortar for 500 meters? We won't even mention needing a 13Foxtrot to walk the rounds in.

And let us not forget:

even attempt to hit a 500 meter target with a M16, let alone hit something intentionally at that range...and do it consistently?

In fact, I would travel anywhere in the country to witness that kind of marksmanship with a issued M16 right now.

I know what you meant, and so do most of the others here.

LawDog

 

[rero360]

I'm tired of all this, TROLL, I may have shot 500 in basic, regardless, others have, and I'm sure I would be able to hit targets out to 600 yards with iron sites consistantly. after all if I can hit the 600 yard targets with my SAW at dusk with the target in shadow, I think I would have no problem with a 16.

 

[ny32182]

If I'm not mistaken, every single Marine shoots an issue M16 at 500+ yards in basic training. All four of my friends from back in high school that went to the Marines did (that would be around late 2000 I guess). They weren't what I would call great shooters, just ordinary guys. All you'd have to do is get the elevation right, and fire away.

Does anyone know exactly how big a B27 target at 500 yards would scale down to at 100? I'm guessing at least the size of a clay pigeon.

I've never done it, but never talked to anyone who did and who thought it was a great feat of marksmanship or something.

 

[rero360]

I could be wrong here, but I think seeing something on the history channel about how it basically appears to be the size of a 3x5 index card.

 

[30Cal]

The aiming black used at Camp Perry (NRA Highpower and CMP) are basically 6 MoA in diameter. The LR X-ring is a 1 minute circle.

 

[DawgFvr]

yada, yada, yada...quite a few, "I never did it, but I knew someone who could..."If I am not mistaken, Marine training did this or that...yada, yada yada..."If I could hit the blind side of a barn with a SAW in low light, I am sure I could do this with the M16...yada yada, yada. Talk is cheap. Either ...thought you did it, thought you saw guys to the right or left of you do it...thought you did it in boot camp more years than you can remember ago..or can acutally do it now if you had the chance. I am certain you all have great fishing stories too. This really is beating a dead horse to death on a web site. I'd like to see anyone of you do it...now, however, since we cannot demonstrate marksmanship on a web page, I shall bicker no more. Me, I am off to the range, Lord knows I need lots of practice after hearing about such marksmanship exploits.

 

[LawDog]

Would somebody, please, dig up an FM 23-9? Title should be "M16A1 & M16A2 Rifle Marksmanship" and the pub date should be sometime in 1989.

I can't find mine.

LawDog

 

[jungle]

We have done all we can, have a good day Dawg.

 

[JShirley]

Which part you lookin' for, LD?

7-29. MISSION OF THE SQUAD DESIGNATED MARKSMAN
The primary mission of the SDM is to deploy as a member of the rifle squad. The SDM is a vital member of his individual squad and not a squad sniper. He fires and maneuvers with his squad and performs all the duties of the standard rifleman. The SDM has neither the equipment nor training to operate individually or in a small team to engage targets at extended ranges with precision fires.

The secondary mission of the SDM is to engage key targets from 300 to 500 meters with effective, well-aimed fires using the standard weapon system and standard ammunition. He may or may not be equipped with an optic. The SDM must, therefore, possess a thorough understanding and mastery of the fundamentals of rifle marksmanship as well as ballistics, elevation and windage hold-off, sight manipulation, and range estimation.

So...the Army does not believe out to 500 meters to be "extended range". Continuing...

7-31. SQUAD DESIGNATED MARKSMAN SKILLS PROGRESSION
The skills progression program for the SDM is based on the M16-/M4-series weapons systems and 100 rounds per man ammunition requirement. The program will assess the soldier's ability to apply the fundamentals of marksmanship and train and assess the soldier in several key areas in which he must be proficient to successfully perform his mission. These areas include basic ballistics, mechanical elevation and windage adjustments, elevation and windage hold-off (adjusted aiming points), and range estimation. The firing events will also serve to both reinforce and assess these areas. All weapons used during training will be the assigned weapons of each soldier participating in the training. The firing events will be conducted with the iron sights or back-up iron sights (BIS) only. The firing events will be conducted on a KD range that enables firing out to 600 meters at a minimum.





http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-22-9/

John

 

[rero360]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-22-9/c02.htm#2_1

its there, they say max effective range for A2 for point target 550 meters, so there you go.

 

[444]

DawgFvr: This is not as big of a deal as you seem to think it is. All you gotta do is get out and try it. Something I didn't appreciate for a long time is how few people have access to a range where they can shoot at any kind of distance.
I don't shoot out to 500 yards with an AR15 very often, but I do it once in awile. The range I normally shoot at has a berm at 500 meters, which I believe is around 550 yards. With the AR15, wind is an issue. I recently started loading 77 grain bullets, but haven't had a chance to try them yet.
I shoot in matches where we use old military rifles like M1s and 1903s: even SKSs in "as issued" condition to shoot steel plates out to 800 yards with side matches at 1000. Everybody puts at least a few rounds on every target. Granted, out past 500 yards, the plates are bigger than a human silhouette, but you get the idea. They did an experimental match where they allowed AR15s configured as an A1 but decided that the 5.56 round shot too flat and now have a rule against using them.

"Does anyone know exactly how big a B27 target at 500 yards would scale down to at 100? I'm guessing at least the size of a clay pigeon."
Here is a little shooting game that I enjoy playing. It has a simulated 500 yard target that you shoot at 25 yards.
Before anyone jumps in, I know this isn't the same as actually shooting at 500 yards: that wasn't the question he asked. http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/humanwave.msnw

 

[LawDog]

Thank you, John, that was pretty much what I was looking for.

Now, I, as a mere 19D, had a copy of FM 23-9 when I was in.

What do you think the chances are that a career 11Bang-Bang/Drill
Sergeant/M16 Rifle Instructor would never, ever, throughout his 20 years in, never see a copy of FM 23-9?

Oh, well. Never having been in the Infantry, a rifle squad is generally about 12 troopies, right?

One SDM per squad, four squads per platoon...call it four Squad Designated Marksmen per platoon. Let me get my boots off here, four platoons...hold the one, carry this little piggy...12 to 16 SDM per company?

Running out of piggies here, how many Squad Designated Marksmen (capable of engaging threats at 500 meters plus) would that be per infantry battalion?

LawDog

 

[Blackhawk 6]

Lawdog,

The typical infantry platoon is 3 rifle squads of 9 men plus a weapons squad. You would have roughly 27 SDM's per battalion, not including snipers. Whether or not the SDM program has been implemented to that degree, I can not say.

BH6 (who's light infantry platoon of ordinary 11B's had no problem making hits at 600 meters once they were shown how.)

 

[albanian]

Why is it so hard to believe that someone could hit a man sized target at 500 yards with an M-16? The .223 is a varmit cartridge that can small game at those distances and the M-16/AR-15 is very accurate for a service rifle. We are not even talking about MOA here. Basically keep it in a 12" group at 500 yards.

I have never done it but I have never tried either. I don't find it hard to believe and I don't think the barrel would have to be angled up at any extreme angle.

I know he is just a troll but didn't it used to seem like trolls were more smarter before.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

trolling, trolling, over the bounding main...

MCRD San Diego, 1999. Up at the Edson Range at Camp Pendleton, I shot a 219. That's one point away from Expert badge, so really kicking myself. Had plenty of recruits on the line, the majority of whom had zero firearms training prior to enlisting, who put all ten rounds in the 5-zone of the 500m target.

TBS Quantico, 2002: At the TBS range up by the FBI Academy, shot a 216 on the KD range. Coming down to the 500m line, I had reckoned that I could only drop one round into the 4-zone and still make expert. I got a 5 the first shot, then the 4, then another 4, after which point Sharpshooter was the best I could hope for.

Good enough for you?

Nope, thought not. All hearsay and allegation from the dim mists of this cranky old veteran's memories. Funny how I still get carded buying smokes, much less beer...

-MV