M16 rifle at 1000 yards.

[Correia]

Yada yada yada whatever. The lowest form of life is a poser. Just below troll.

Do you really think that we are stupid enough to believe that you were a marksmanship instructor who believes that you need to mortar 5.56 rounds in at 500 yards? Did you miss the part about regular soldiers shooting EIC? Do you know what that even is, oh rifle expert drill instructor? Quick, google it so that you can come back and show us how you're the real deal weapons expert. While you are unleashing the power of the internet, look up Highpower competition, which started out as a military match.

The qual targets and the highpower targets are large and visible, like a qual target. Lots of people on this board do it all of the time. And it isn't internet bragging and make believe when you post under your own name and the match scores are publically posted. And these are iron sighted matches out to 1,000 yards. There is probably a club in every state of the country, and as a super dooper marksmanship drill instructor you may want to check one out sometime, because you're doing your students a real disservice.

 

[Preacherman]

To contribute a foreign viewpoint: whilst I've never fired a US Army qualification, I did so many times in the South African armed forces, and shots out to 400 or 500 meters (metric system), using 5.56x45mm. R4 rifles (a copy of the Israeli Galil), were always part of the deal. In earlier days, when we used FN/FAL's, shots out to 800 meters were often thrown in to break ties!

(And trying to hit a bullseye at 800 meters, in a strong crosswind, with iron sights, after being made to run a few hundred yards as "preparation" for shooting - by an instructor who didn't want your unit's scores to beat his unit's scores - is an interesting proposition... but we did it, and ruined his day! )

 

[Jeff White]

DawgFvr,
When and where did you serve? Your experience sure doesn't match mine. We shot 500 yards on the old KD range at Ft Leonard Wood MO in 1974 when I was in basic.

And no this isn't some faded old memory. I served from 6 Dec 74 until 1 Nov 03. Started on the M16A1 and finished with an A2. I was never in any HSLD units, but I spent many years humping a ruck as a straight leg grunt. Held every position in a rifle company from rifleman to 1SG.

Where'd you go to drill sergeant school at? How long were you on the trail? BCT or OSUT? If you were on the trial in Infantry OSUT then you had to practically memorize ARM.

You say you were a common light Infantry grunt. 7th ID, 10th, 25th, 101st? Heck we may know some of the same people.....

I'm at work now and don't have access to my library, but when I get home, I'll post the references to shooting past 300 meters from FM 23-9 M16A1 Rifle and Rifle Marksmanship dtd 1974, FM 23-9 M16A1 and M16A2 Rifle and Rifle Marksmanship dtd 1998 and FM 3.22-9 M16A1, M16A2, M16A3, M16A4, M4 and M4A1 Rifles and Carbines dtd 2003.

Jeff

 

[No Quarter]

DogFVR is spewing the same nonsense over at GT.
It makes me proud to see so many other Marines and members of the other branches basically shooting this poseur down. His lack of knowledge about the M16 and its capabilities is breathtaking to say the least.

Iron sights, and follow BRASS. you do know what BRASS is don't you DogFVR?

Works like a charm. There are hundreds of 18 year old Marine boots qualling expert every day that have never even touched a rifle before bootcamp that can hit ten of ten at 500.

Edson range - how I remember that place! "Reach down and grab ahold - get those dog targets up in the air!"

I guess you are showing the difference between a 20 year army vet and a boot Marine recruit.

To those that actually did serve in the Army, unlike our friend DogFVR, just some friendly ribbing
NQ

 

[Roudy]

Gentlemen,
In the 1960's I shot on a variety of rifle teams in the Marine Corps. The normal course of fire was 200 yd Offhand slow fire, 200 yd Sitting rapid fire, 300 Yd prone rapid fire, and 20 rounds prone slow fire at 600 yds. The regular Marine Corps qualification course was a bit different and the rapid fire courses used a sillohuette target rather than the bullseye used on the match courses.

With iron sights at 600 yards you can shoot bullseyes even if you turn the target around with the black in the other direction....you just center the front sight halfway up on the target frame. The bullsyeye was 20 in diameter with a 10 inch V ring.

 

[Roudy]

Forgot to mention...we didn't use M16's, just the old M1's and M14's.

 

[carebear]

Couldn't find my FM but I have an old Data book that contains the KD course of fire.

Stage 5 is " Slow Fire, 500yds, 10 minutes, 10 rounds in the mag, "E" target, prone position, loop sling.

I don't recall it taking me 10 minutes in Boot ('91) and I seem to recall getting 10/10. Kinda hard to miss slung up in prone, staying awake in the sun was the worst part.

I dropped my points (2 or 3 from Expert) in the 300 yd. rapid fire IIRC. Made up for it when I qual'd at my unit.

Edited to add: Which I then did every couple years up until 2001 or so. Long range with irons, on a range, isn't that big a deal if you have your fundamentals down.

 

[rocky]

My experience at Camp Perry. We got to shoot out to 600 yrds. Yes a AR/M16 variant will shoot that far. The Targets at 600 yrds are BIG. Only way to see em thru irons. Those teens chosen to attend the Marine corp shooting classes are talented shooters already.
I personally witnessed a fellow shooter firing a AR for competition. It was windy that day and the shooter had problems adjusting to compesate for the wind at 600 yrds. seems a 5.56mm bullet is affected a bit more than a 7.62 bullet in strong cross winds.

 

[PvtPyle]

Again, I am talking about the iron sights on an issued M16A2...not scoped. You that did it, you are better than I. ..........Anybody that can hit a 500 meter target so consistently with the M16 is somebody that I want to meet. Um, do it lately or is this in the far reaches of your memory? Time does wonderful things to those memories ya know.

The open EIC matches are not for rifles with any optics. All iron sights.

And I don't have to rely on my questionable memory, the plaques and coins are in the curio cabnet at work. And we still do them at practice every month here.


And I too would have to call you out. Consider the electronic coin slapped down on the bar. I would love to know when you served and with who.

 

[Jeff White]

From FM 23-9 M16A1 Rifle and Rifle Marksmanship dtd June 1974:

Page 6: Maximum Range 2,653 meters
Maximum Effective Range 460 meters

Page 83: M16A1 Sights

a. The rear sight consists of two apertures (fig 4-5) and a windage drum with a spring loaded detent (fig 4-6). The aperture marked "L" is used for ranges beyond 300 meters, and the unmarked aperture for ranges from 0-300 meters.

The unmarked aperture is used when establishing the battlesight zero. Once the battlesight zero has been obtained, flipping to the aperture marked "L" automatically extends the zero out to 375 meters without additional adjustments to the front sight post.

Yes, even the M16A1 was used out past 300 meters. IIRC the Marines still fired at 500 meters with it and M193 ammunition for qualification, and the KD range was still part of Army BRM in those days.

Now we go to FM 23-9 M16A1 and M16A2 Rifle Marksmanship dtd July 1989 (this is the manual Lawdog spoke of). In Appendix A, Year Round Marksmanship Training on page A-14 we have this:

TASK: Zero the M16A1/A2 rifle at ranges of 300, 400, 500, and 600 yards.

CONDITIONS: Given an E-type silhoutte and 36 rounds of 5.56mm ammunition fired in four 3-round shot groups at each range from the prone supported position.

STANDARDS: Each soldier correctly demonstrates the techniques of sight adjustment to zero the M16A1/A2 rifle for each range and obtains a zero within 12 rounds at 300, 400 and 500 yards.

The next task is guess what? That's right, engage targets at distances of 300, 400 500 and 600 yards with the M16A1/A2 rifle.

Those tasks are part of Advanced Rifle Marksmanship which is taught in Infantry OSUT.

Appendix G of that version of the manual includes instructions on how to run the KD range used for that exercise.

The current manual FM 3.22-9 covers the information that John Shirley posted. Firing past 300 meters has been part of Army training almost forever. Adoption of the M16 series didn't change that.

Jeff

 

[Powderman]

Again, I am talking about the iron sights on an issued M16A2...not scoped. You that did it, you are better than I. As I previously stated, the Army's standard marksmanship ranges do not go beyond 300 meter targets...so, you must all be Marines then...and excellent shots. My hats off to you. I bow low to your superior marksmanship abilities. I never witnessed it in my twenty years of the Army, but then, I was just a common light infantry grunt ...sure could have used you guys in my units. You are good...no, better than good...insturctor material Anybody that can hit a 500 meter target so consistently with the M16 is somebody that I want to meet. Um, do it lately or is this in the far reaches of your memory? Time does wonderful things to those memories ya know.

If you're ever in Washington State, I'll be glad to introduce you to someone.

E.C. Tovar III, Cpl, United States Marine Corps (Reserve now, formerly of C Battery, 1/12 Marines, Kaneohe Bay, HI). Qualified Expert with the M16A2, certified small arms instructor and coach.

I have personally witnessed this Marine shoot out an X-ring on a B27 silhouette, standing unsupported at 100 yards.

Did I mention that he is my son, too?

By the way, with all due respect, I have fired the M16 at 500 yards, on the KD ranges at Ft. Lewis, WA. Once I found the range, with a nice tight sling the rest was history. It was a calm day, no wind, at about 2 PM, sun was behind us and lit up the silhouettes quite well. Since it was training only, I got about 6 or 7 spotter rounds to zero in and to adjust sights. Once I settled into the V, I put 10 consecutive shots into it.

Shooting at 600 yards is simply a state of mind. Find the front sight, center, practice good steady hold factors, and have a good rifle. The rest is almost automatic.

By the way, you've never shot NRA High Power or Service Rifle, have you?

Yours,

E.C. Tovar Jr.
SSG, USA (1977-1992)

 

[JShirley]

Sarge,

I really regret not finding time to get together with you at Lewis.

John

 

[Master Blaster]

Wow look at all the insults hurled at our new friend.

I saw my post was deleted in the other thread, the one where I said he was 12, Well I was wrong his polite but insistent demeanor clearly proves he is at least a 17 year old troll.

 

[PvtPyle]

I would not call them insults, rather open challenges to his credibility. I would say the only thing insulted here is our intelligence if he really expects us to believe him.

 

[Zak Smith]

M193 from a 20" with a 100 yard zero will drop only about 36" at 500 yards. Dial 7 clicks per the table JShirley posted and you'll hit a silhouette every time.

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

What would you like to know about it? In 2004 a civilian took 1st in the service rifle catagory at the nationals in the palma match with a rock river arms 20" service rifle open sighted. That 15 shots for record each at 800, 900 and 1000. That person also finished 21st overall in the national championship match. Most folks try a life time to make the palma 20 and he missed it with a ar15 by just a inch or so. And he lost most of his points at 800 believe it or not. That was shooting only 75 grain bullets also.

The two big military teams along with the all gaurd and the USMCR also field top rated teams. The top two are natually the USMC and USAMU. You must realize that in the USAMU that is there job to shoot and unless they do not cut it they stay and shoot and help train others. The USMC rotates their shooters to field units that Fight so their teams in a time of war are always short of their best shooters as they are out keeping us safe where the USAMU stays here. When we are not at war they are pretty evenly matched.
But the camp Perry story does not tell the rest of the story either.
The civilian teams that compete must be from the state they are from so that makes it hard to compete with the two service teams that do it for a living.
Where does the army get its shooters for the teams. They are heavily recruited even more than the marine team is. I lost two juniors to them in 04. The army team only takes like 3 pickup shooters for the summer and they come from all over the army. Usually to make it you must of finished up in the rnkings in the all army matches unless you do it on your own which does happen.
If you want to do it and make the teams on your own get out and shoot lots of matches and do good at the nationals on your on and you MAY get a shot at one of those 3 slots for the summer. A good friend and camping partner got his shot last year when in 04 he paid his own way and got EIC legs points at the Nationals and then was the coach for the rumbold team that won the national title in 04. That was a civilian team by the way. He was offered one of the 3 slots for 05. That is how it is done.
To also let you know how you may get into it from being a junior before you join the army. The army will send you a letter asking if you are intersted in joining their USAMU program. If you say you are interested when you shoot at the nationals they come around after every stage and write your score down on a big chart that they keep track of. If you are deemed worthy you may join.

Does that seem easy to you? No it is not and that is why you do not hear much about it as you can not just sign up like a lottery and get in.

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

Like I said before I have shot those 1k matches with a open sighted ar15 service rifle. look at it like we do and that is shooting palma is like having SEX. 800 yards an 900 yard is like foreplay and 1k yard you get screwed. To be competitive at those ranges you MUST clean or darn well be close to a clean at 800 yards. 900 yards it gets tougher and at 1k that is a right small dot down there as you use the same target at all 3 ranges. I find with loads that I will not share it is possible to only lose one scoring ring with a ar15 compared to the others. That is still a big number so you find your self at a big disavantage. 500 and 600 yards there is not much difference between the good service rifle shooters and the bolt guys with or without the scopes. If you do not believe that then go to a long range prone match and watch.
Also the rattle battle match is fired out to 600 yards. A good NTIT shooter in that match will put at least 25 plus hits in a half man target at 500 and 600 in under 50 seconds. My job at the nationals is what they call the swing shooter and that is I have to shoot on two targets. I will fire 14 or 15 shots on both targets at 500 and 600 in under 50 seconds with a most of the time 12 to 15 hits on each. It is a wind call game and the coach who nails the wind with the hard holders wins. The USAMU did not place well in that event last year as the same coach they named missed the wind call at 600 yards.

You can look my name up if you wish as it is on the CMP site in several places for last year alone if you doubt what I am saying. I did not finish as high as in 04 but did do a few things. Finished 61st on a bad day for me out of the high 900's in the EIC match for non distinguised shooters to make the cut and go Distinguised (1762)is my DR number. My team I was captain on finished in the top 10 in the Whister boy match and the teams I shot on finished to record scores for a team from CO. last year also. I also just missed the top 100 scores for a EIC match in the US by 1 point in 05 and finished 87th in the top 100 in 04. That is for the top 100 scores fired in the united states in a EIC match in that year. I also coach the second rattle battle team at the nationals for the state. If that is not good enough for anyone then just call the USAMU if you are in the military and ask if you can send some folks to get trained as they have a program where the civilians teach the GI's marksmanship.

Jon

 

[aslondon]

Back in Army Basic 35 years ago some of us routinely worked 500 - 800m with stock sighted 16's. It was a learning process initially, but once we had the feel for it, it was quite repeatable.

 

[benEzra]

Here is a little shooting game that I enjoy playing. It has a simulated 500 yard target that you shoot at 25 yards.
Before anyone jumps in, I know this isn't the same as actually shooting at 500 yards: that wasn't the question he asked. http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR1...humanwave.msnw

444, I can't get the targets to load (requires password). Could you post them here?

 

[Powderman]

DawgFvr, I believe we're still waiting for you to post your curriculum vitae.

 

[PvtPyle]

I am not holding my breath.

Anyone have the link to GT where he is putting out the same BS?

 

[Jeff White]

View Profile: DawgFvr

DawgFvr
New Member

Last Activity: January 23rd, 2006 07:18 PM

Hmmm he seems to have left the forum about the time people started asking questions. Wonder why?

Jeff

 

[Mantis]

yada, yada, yada...quite a few, "I never did it, but I knew someone who could..."If I am not mistaken, Marine training did this or that...yada, yada yada..."If I could hit the blind side of a barn with a SAW in low light, I am sure I could do this with the M16...yada yada, yada. Talk is cheap. Either ...thought you did it, thought you saw guys to the right or left of you do it...thought you did it in boot camp more years than you can remember ago..or can acutally do it now if you had the chance. I am certain you all have great fishing stories too. This really is beating a dead horse to death on a web site. I'd like to see anyone of you do it...now, however, since we cannot demonstrate marksmanship on a web page, I shall bicker no more. Me, I am off to the range, Lord knows I need lots of practice after hearing about such marksmanship exploits.

It seems to me that the only people who say that you can't hit targets at 600 yds with open sights are the ones who have never tried it. It may sound intimidating, but it really isn't that difficult. My first time shooting 600 yds was at Perry a couple of years ago in the P100. My first shot was a 9 at 7:00. I'll admit, it was lucky because I guessed at how much elevation to put on, but the rest of the shots fell into place. I ended up with a 93 for the string, and I don't really consider myself a very good shooter.

 

[taliv]

it seems to me that people are putting an awful lot of effort into overstating the obvious. For the love of God, people, he's either a 16 yr old wannabe or one of 'us' amusing himself with a little troll. (probalby the former, since he fled so quickly) in either case, it's hard to see how this warranted so much attention. Is the ability to hit a 600 yrd target with an m16 seriously in such contention on this board that it requires so many THR heavyweights to provide proof? come on...

refuting claims like this is like hunting cows with a hammer. where's the sport in it?

 

[PvtPyle]

refuting claims like this is like hunting cows with a hammer. where's the sport in it?

That is one of the funniest things I have heard in a LONG time. May I use this quote? Thanks!

Seriously, very funny!