M1911 for a self defense pistol?
- Thread starter Slamfire
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I have searched the web for data bases of accidental discharges (AD’s), and have not found them.
(I found one on a Navy page, with M92's, but lost the link. There were a lot of AD's.)
I have read and “heard of” incidences of AD’s with M1911's.
Yes, there were AD’s with series 70’s type M1911’s with rounds in the chamber. It did not matter whether the pistol was cocked and locked, all that mattered was that there was a round in the chamber and the pistol was dropped far enough, in the right direction, for the firing pin to tap the primer. That is why Kimber, Colt, all have these firing pin blocks. Heck my P-38 has a firing pin block, so the Germans must have heard about this and designed that out.
As far as cocked and locked, I read one in American Handgunner. Cop goes into rest room stall in police station and hangs his “cocked and locked” M1911 on the coat hook. Somewhere, sometime the locked part of this equation becomes unlocked. As he reaches to lift his pistol off , the trigger bumps the coat hook. It fires. The recoil moves the M1911 back and forward, bumping the trigger on the coat hook with each discharge, until his M1911 is empty.
The problem is not mechanically cocked and locked, it is when the user thinks it is cocked and locked, but the safety is off. Some M1911’s have a stiff safety. Others have these extended safeties, ( Swenson types are on both sides) with the extra leverage and a rounded safety cam that are easy to disengage.
After that, all it takes is 3.5 pounds on the trigger.
Madcap_Magician
Member
This is just about on par with the .45 vs. 9mm question and seems designed to stir up John Browning's acolytes, IMHO.
None of the above indicates design flaws. Anyone moronic enough to hang any firearm by the trigger guard should not be trusted with anything mechanical and certainly should NOT have a badge.
"User thinks" is a brain malfunction. Such people would have negligent discharges with a slingshot.
Vern Humphrey
Member
It takes more training to achieve an acceptagle skill level with a double-action revolver than with an M1911. And in the course of training any supposed problem with gettng the safety off is more than adequately dealt with.
Cocked & Locked
Member
Oh, OK Vern.
MikePGS
Member
Many pistols are practical for self-defense purposes, the M1911 merely being one of them. It all comes down to personal preference and what you feel comfortable with. You should try out a lot of different guns (borrow, rent, etc) and only then can you determine which is best for you.
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The biggest reason I consider my 1911 my best self defense pistol is that my group at 15 yards with my 1911 looks like my group at 7 yards with the .45 XD I got rid of later on 
, plus if you can't solve a problem with 9 rounds of .45, it's unlikely another 4 or 5 would help
If I lived somewhere that I could get a concealed carry permit, my 1911 is what I would carry. I would just need to pull off the Pachmyrs I currently have on it for some low profile grips and it would be ready to go. The single stack magazine actually makes the firearm a little bit slimmer and easier to conceal compared to my double stack handgun.
As for the weight, I like heavy pistols. They're more comfortable for me to shoot, and to be honest with a decent belt and holster you're really not going to notice the weight that much. When I was in Colorado, I sometimes forgot it was even wearing it.
Finally, carrying a properly functioning pistol Cocked and Locked hasn't bothered me for a while, they're designed to be carried like that. If the safety is properly fitted and you follow the 4 rules, you won't have any ND issues with a 1911.
, plus if you can't solve a problem with 9 rounds of .45, it's unlikely another 4 or 5 would help If I lived somewhere that I could get a concealed carry permit, my 1911 is what I would carry. I would just need to pull off the Pachmyrs I currently have on it for some low profile grips and it would be ready to go. The single stack magazine actually makes the firearm a little bit slimmer and easier to conceal compared to my double stack handgun.
As for the weight, I like heavy pistols. They're more comfortable for me to shoot, and to be honest with a decent belt and holster you're really not going to notice the weight that much. When I was in Colorado, I sometimes forgot it was even wearing it.
Finally, carrying a properly functioning pistol Cocked and Locked hasn't bothered me for a while, they're designed to be carried like that. If the safety is properly fitted and you follow the 4 rules, you won't have any ND issues with a 1911.
oasis618
Member
I find this thread both inforative and entertaining.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Was the grip safety also non-functional...or is this another internet tale told by a friend's cousin's half brother's uncle?
The grip safety blocks the trigger. Unless the officer grabbed the gun from the coat hook with a firing grip, it couldn't have bump-fired. I'm not saying that it's impossible, but it's not real likely.
And...
If the officer wasn't aware that his pistol had become unlocked during his trip to the head...he probably doesn't have the cognitive awareness to be a cop in the first place.
And...
If he did in fact yank an off-safe pistol off a coat hook carelessly enough to fire it...he probably should leave his hands off dangerous equipment.
With a cocked and locked 1911 that's in good mechanical order, so many things have to go wrong in order for the holstered gun to spontaneously fire, there's about as good a chance of it happening as being stuck by a bolt of lightening while standing in the middle of the Sahara Desert.
essayons21
Member
I've heard and read a couple of tales in which LEOs were involved in scuffles with a holstered cocked and locked 1911. During the scuffles the 1911s were struck on the ground or car hard enough to bend the hammer of the 1911, and in one case the hammer was completely sheared off. The gun did not fire. I believe one of these stories was printed in an issue of American Handgunner about 3 years ago.
The moral is, the exposed hammer of a 1911 simply looks scary to the uninformed, and poses no greater risk of AD than other designs, including the modern striker fired pistols with their "exposed" strikers and no safety.
The moral is, the exposed hammer of a 1911 simply looks scary to the uninformed, and poses no greater risk of AD than other designs, including the modern striker fired pistols with their "exposed" strikers and no safety.
jahwarrior
Member
the 1911 was created by John Moses Browning, and ordained by G*D; it is the perfect combat handgun, or else it would have gone the way of the Luger. it's still made, and carried, nearly 100 years after its inception. it's heavy enough to control recoil, flat enough to conceal easily, even the 5" models, and solid enough to use as a club.
BullitHolz
Member
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The truth of the matter is that most modern striker fired designs are, in essence, cocked and locked too. Unlike the 1911 you just can't "see" it so in a sense your still carrying in condition 1 if a round is in the chamber of your plastic fantastic. I think you just feel safer because your ignorant of how the gun actually functions. I would dare say that since the 1911 has a blocked trigger, blocked sear and in more modern cersions a blocked firing pin that it's actually much safer that a modern striker fired pistol is. Like Tuner said there are simply too many things that have to occurr to get a 1911 to AD.
ohioshooter
Member
Some people think that Glocks have never had a FTF or something. Just because yours doesn't or hasn't doesn't make Glock the best thing since sliced bread. So for every 1911 that hasn't gone bang everytime, I'm sure if you talk to enough people you'll find just as many Glocks that have as well. (along with any other manufacture of firearms) That's just the law of averages.
Am I a Glock basher, no not at all, I own 4 myself, I carry a fullsize Kimber Crimson Carry and switch it off with a Glock 19 and both are reliable and have never had a FTF and shoot them both equally well. Which one I carry on a daily basis depends on what I plan on wearing that day.
My 2 cent opinion is like *******s.....everyone has one.
Am I a Glock basher, no not at all, I own 4 myself, I carry a fullsize Kimber Crimson Carry and switch it off with a Glock 19 and both are reliable and have never had a FTF and shoot them both equally well. Which one I carry on a daily basis depends on what I plan on wearing that day.
My 2 cent opinion is like *******s.....everyone has one.
dmazur
Member
Unless some misguided soul has disabled the grip safety, all it takes once the thumb safety is off is to hold the pistol in a normal firing grip and apply 3.5 pounds of pressure to the trigger.
I will admit that a reasonable amount of caution is recommended when holstering, such as flicking the safety on before this action. After all, holstering is done with a normal firing grip so you don't have double protection here.
However, if the safety is accidentally knocked off after holstering (which ambi safeties are somewhat susceptible to), the grip safety still guards the trigger from rearward motion.
I think this makes the answer to your question simple. If you are uncomfortable with carrying the gun as it was designed to be used, cocked and locked, then the 1911 is not for you.
I have no dog in this fight, as I carry a uber tacticool Springfield XD 9mm, and don't even own a 1911.
gearjammer711
Member
if it goes click and not bang, a safety is the least worry.point and click, not point click, click
It is impossible to fire a round that way while in a holster (unless you fell off a building and landed just right) or by dropping it at waist level or even much much higher than waist level. Series 70s can be carried without any fear of that happening...because it just won't happen. The inertia it takes to set off that primer would require a fall from a very high place and it would have to land just right on a hard surface. Unless you prefer to throw your guns off building at bad guys, I think you're ok with a 70.
I think the reason for the firing pin block is.....lawyers.
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