M1911 Hammer Bite?

[Nightcrawler]

Okay, I'm trying to figure out where people are coming from on this. A lot of folks say they don't like the spur hammer on an M1911 type pistol because they get hammer bite. That is, the hammer spur comes back and lashes them in the back of the hand.

So, I took some photos of me gripping my Colt. As you can see, there is no way the hammer could actually make contact with any part of my hand. In one picture, I have the hammer pressed against the corner of my desk, pushing it as far back as it will go. It still doesn't come anywhere near the top of my hand.

So the question I have is this. How do you get your hand tore up by an M1911 with a spur hammer? Perhaps I'm holding the pistol incorrectly, or perhaps people have much larger hands than me.

I'm not trying to prove a point or argue for the superiority of a spur hammer. All kinds of hammers hit the firing pin just fine. I'm just trying to figure out where people are coming from on this.

Thanks!

 

[10-Ring]

I guess I take a slightly higher grip & have "meatier" hands than you I experienced bite until I mod'd out my Colt. Hey, it's really about the versatility of this platform

 

[monsternav]

Can you say "Limp Wrist".

That's the only time I have had it happen.

I think I have "average size" hands. Maybe big hands and a high grip are more prone to it.

 

[jman74]

I'm no expert, but I do get 'bit' by the hammer on my Champion. I'm not so sure it's the hammer that does the 'biting'. It might be the hammer slamming into the grip safety which in turn does the 'biting'. My Mil-Spec did the same thing before I swapped it for a S&A beavertail. My hi-cap on the other hand has never biten me.

 

[XavierBreath]

1. You are holding a Colt 1991, not a M1911. The grip safeties are significantly different.
2. You are holding the pistol low.
3. The pistol is not under recoil.

I'm attaching a couple of M1911 photos so you can see the difference.

 

[Jim K]

Remember also that the hammer will come back further when the gun is fired than it does if just pushed back by the slide. In firing, the slide drives the hammer out of contact and down until the grip safety stops it, then it bounces back up to strike the slide. If the grip, the fleshiness of the hand, or a long hammer spur allows the hammer to touch the skin, it's Band Aid time.

Jim

 

[Nightcrawler]

Well, yes, but very few current production guns have the short, original style grip safety tang and GI hammer.

Observe the Springfield Mil-Spec:

Grip safety tang and hammer type are nearly identical to the Colt 1991 series. These and the 1991 Colts are the most commonly encountered spur-hammer guns out there, and these are the ones I was talking about.

The pistol is not under recoil in the photos, but I've never once been struck by the hammer spur when firing. The hammer simply isn't long enough to reach the top of my hand.

As for holding the pistol low...that's quite possible, but the top of my hand is up there with the tang on the frame. It's not possible for me to grip it any higher without it becoming uncomfortable. In any case, gripped as such my trigger finger lines up with the trigger; that is, when my trigger finger is straight, it rests directly across the trigger loop, parallel to the barrel. Any higher of a grip and I'd have to reach "down" to get my finger in the trigger loop.

Is all this a product of people shooting with their thumbs up on the safety? Perhaps that's the difference.

Remember also that the hammer will come back further when the gun is fired than it does if just pushed back by the slide. In firing, the slide drives the hammer out of contact and down until the grip safety stops it, then it bounces back up to strike the slide. If the grip, the fleshiness of the hand, or a long hammer spur allows the hammer to touch the skin, it's Band Aid time.

This photo has me using the corner of the desk to push the hammer back. This is as far as it will go. It brings the end of the hammer spur closer to the hand, but still never enough to make contact.

Do the 1991 Colts and the Mil-Specs have a shortened hammer? If the GI hammer were longer than the one in the photos, I can see where contact with the hand would be possible.

 

[Doug.38PR]

Ouch. I do see the difference in the original 1911. I always wondered that too as I never had a problem with this with my 1911 A1 Springfield Armory G.I.

The only 1911ish gun I ever heard about this happening was the Browning Highpower. Friend of mine loves the BHP as his fav piece, but told me he quickly learned how to hold the gun so that wouldn't happen.

A girl that works at the local gunrange had the same problem so the gunsmith she works with modified hers with a longer beaver tail.

 

[bakert]

I can gurantee the hammer spur gets to my hand. My son shoots a regular unaltered 1911 quite a bit and the hammer never bothers him. My hand is bigger and maybe more fleshy because the sucker really chews on the web of my hand unless I make a concious effort to hold the grip lower down.

 

[XavierBreath]

Many people, myself included, try to get the web of our hand as high as possible behind the bore axis of the pistol. In addition, we will rest our right thumb on top of the thumb safety to insure it is down and to provide a bit of leverage in controlling muzzle flip. Our left thumb will rest alongside or on top of our right. This grip is significantly higher than the grip you are using. It is also why the extended (not wide, but rather extended) thumb safety is often preferred along with the beavertail grip safety.

I did not always grip a 1911 this way. After I tried it though, I noticed an immediate decrease in my split times and a lot more accuracy on the second and subsequent shots. I found that it works for me. It does, with a GI grip safety, place a roll of flesh in harms way under recoil. I don't get bit every time with a stock 1991 but I do get bit often enough to justify the beavertail.

The Ed Brown grip safety involves quite a bit of frame alteration for a proper fit. It also raises the web of the hand about 1/4 inch higher behind the bore axis. That is significant, and that is why I install the Brown grip safety on my guns. Here's a picture that I hope will show the difference. Compare the area behind where the thumb safety pin goes through the frame.

Thanks for asking the question in such a nice way. That's why I tried to answer it the best I could. Not everyone needs a beavertail grip safety. Some people benefit from them though. At some point, a detractor will join this thread and start spewing about opposable thumbs and hitch hiking. It happens every time this subject is brought up. All I can say in response is meet me at the range.

I hope this helps explain it a bit.

 

[Nightcrawler]

Thanks for asking the question in such a nice way. That's why I tried to answer it the best I could. Not everyone needs a beavertail grip safety. Some people benefit from them though.

Well, like I said, I'm not out to prove the superiority of anything. I personally don't give a hoot what kind of grip safety and hammer anyone else has on their 1911 type guns. I really and truly am just curious.

You'll notice in my photos that I have short, stubby thumbs. Holding the pistol in my right hand, I actually have to shift my grip to reach the magazine release. As such, I've never considered shooting with my thumb up on the safety. It just feels funny. In any case, being left handed and not yet having an ambi safety on my pistol, it's not really an option.

At some point, a detractor will join this thread and start spewing about opposable thumbs and hitch hiking. It happens every time this subject is brought up.

Oh I'm sure. About the same time, someone will come along and find a veiled way of telling me I'm too stupid to hold my pistol correctly, and insist that if I swap out a few parts that I'll go from doing pretty good with my pistol to being super awesome with it. Such is life on internet message boards, neh?

Personally, for me, it's like this. I like the gun the way it is. I shoot well enough with it, given how often I practice.

Thing is, I didn't learn to shoot a pistol on a 1911 type. So the whole thumb on the safety part isn't really second nature for me. Honestly I've got a lot more range time with my revolvers anyway.

 

[GoRon]

My pre series 70 Colt Commander gives me hammerbite. It has the standard grip safety and the commander or round hammer spur.

No problem with my full size TRP or RRA commander size gun. As stated above they have beavertail grip safeties and extended thumb safeties.

I normally shoot with my thumb on the safety with a high hold.

 

[XavierBreath]

Bingo.
In the end, it's all about what you want and what makes you happy. Afterall, it's your gun.

FWIW, sometimes this Series 70 9mm Commander will nip me, even with the rowell hammer. I like it the way it is though, so I have not swapped in a beavertail. It's kind of the antithesis of what my usual 1911 is. It has no beavertail, a short trigger, and an arched MSH. Go figure. I grip it the same way, (note the extended thumb safety) and I put a lot of lead downrange with it regardless.

 

[Nightcrawler]

My question for the high thumbs shooters is, do you attempt to grip non-1911 pistols the same way? Glocks, Sigs, Rugers, CZs, Berettas, etc? Guns with very different layouts and configurations. Many might not be compatible with that kind of grip.

Or do you practice/train with 1911 pattern guns almost exclusively?

 

[XavierBreath]

If the pistol has something to place the thumb on, to provide some downward pressure, I will use it. Not many pistols have a thumb safety that is located in the same position. Most have the thumb safety on the slide. You will note that some grips come with a shelf for the thumb.

Grips that immediately come to mind are found on Ruger MKIIs at times, and aftermarket target grips for Sigs and Smith & Wesson's (the S&W Model 41 as well as the revolvers). It is arguable that finger ridges on the front strap perform the same function of downward pressure to control recoil.

I do not practice with 1911s exclusively, but I shoot them often. They are my preferred semi-auto, along with the Ruger MKII. When shooting other semi-autos, if there is no provision for downward thumb pressure, I adopt a lower grip, and my splits and follow-up accuracy suffers. Thus, I prefer the 1911. I did shoot other pistols for quite a while before the 1911 dinosaur won me over. A Sig or a HK may be every bit as accurate a gun, and a good shooter might whoop my tail with one. I shoot the 1911 with a high hold better than I can shoot that Sig or HK though. Other folk's results may vary.

 

[BluesBear]

First off let me say that I have never been able to get hammer bite. Even with an original 1911 with the long hammer and short grip safety.
I use a Colt wide gripsafety but only because it acts as an indexing point. By the way the grip safety feels I can tell whare the muzzle is.

For years, like Nightcrawler, I couldn't figure out how it could happen with anyone. I had shot with dozens of people who had never had it happen with their stock guns.
Finally, just a few years ago was shooting with someone who actually had it happen to them, while I was present, that I figured it out.

It seems that during recoil the gun would recoil would push the muzzle up and ro the right slightly. This allowed the flesh just to the left of the grip safety tang to squeeze around far enough to get pinched by the hammer spur.
I don't know if this is how everyone gets bit but this is how it happened in this instance.

What you can't duplicate in most staged photos is the "ripple" of flesh that forms as the recoil pushes the gun back into the web of the hand. It seems that this "ripple" it what gets bit. Which is why you don't see it when merely gripping the pistol.

I believe hammer bite exists. I'm just one of the lucky majority that never suffers from it.
Thankfully for those that do, the cure is simple.

 

[1911user]

I'm one of the unlucky people that have problems with hammerbite. The web of my hand is fleshy and I use a high grip for better control. I could never shoot a BHP or CZ75 even though the ergos are great. I gripped both and could make the hammer hit the web of my hand just by pushing it back, no recoil required. A beavertail safety is a must (for me) on a 1911 and a big reason I use that model. BHPs require welding for a beavertail.

It's hard to shoot well when the web of your hand gets spanked by the hammer on every shot. It's right up there with shooting a lightweight, heavy recoiling rifle repeatedly and you are only wearing a thin T-shirt. It's not a joke and it sure isn't funny.

 

[ugaarguy]

NC,

You have asked wat I was thinking after handling my recently aquired SA GI 1911. Very Interesting to see the old safety & hammer in the pics Xavier posted. I suppose I get a bit of safety sting from the narrow tail of the SA's grip safety, but never anything close to hammer bite. Hopefully I'll get a beavertail safety soon that will be more compatible with my higher grip.

Ohh yeah, Also, you're too stupid to hold your pistol correctly, and I insist that if you swap out a few parts that you'll go from doing pretty good with your pistol to being super awesome with it. There I got it out out of the way for you

 

[1911 guy]

High grip does it to me.

I, like XavierBreath, like a high grip. If I'm just plinking and keep a lower grip, I've got no problems with hammer bite. So, my carry gun has the bobbed hammer and beavertail safety.

 

[Zach S]

I dont have a problem with hammerbite, but the GI gripsafety does put a bloodblister on the web of my hand during long rangesessions.

My question for the high thumbs shooters is, do you attempt to grip non-1911 pistols the same way? Glocks, Sigs, Rugers, CZs, Berettas, etc? Guns with very different layouts and configurations. Many might not be compatible with that kind of grip.

Or do you practice/train with 1911 pattern guns almost exclusively?

Yes, and yes.

I shoot high thumb with just about everything I pick up. Sigs, Glocks, and I think Berettas (along with their Taurus clones) fail to slide lock more than they succeed. To cure this, I shoot 1911s almost exclusively. I think I have eight autoloaders, seven of which are 1911s, and the last is my beater G19.

 

[TrapperReady]

I've got one 1911 pistol. It's a Colt WWI repro, and I do suffer from hammer bite with it. FWIW, I've got small hands and use a fairly high, "thumbs-high", hold. When I'm just holding the pistol, it doesn't seem like it would make contact, but under recoil it does.

 

[Chris Rhines]

My question for the high thumbs shooters is, do you attempt to grip non-1911 pistols the same way? Glocks, Sigs, Rugers, CZs, Berettas, etc? Guns with very different layouts and configurations. Many might not be compatible with that kind of grip.

I grip all semi-automatic pistols the same way - thumbs aligned and pointed at target, weak-side wrist canted downward, strong-side thumb on safety if present. Works well for every pistol I've held.

Revolvers are different, but I neither own nor shoot revolvers.

As an aside, I do not have hammer bite issues with most pistols. I've been bit by an old Browning P35 and a Walther PPK.

- Chris

 

[45auto]

Also, I'd bet the term "hammer bite" is a "catch-all" for cutting, bruising, etc the hand. Meaning, a lot of people will cut and bruise themselves because of the frame/beavertail edges impacting your hand on recoil and might call it hammer bite. It's not the hammer, but the effect is the same...basically.

 

[BluesBear]

And I'd bet you are right.

 

[rbernie]

My question for the high thumbs shooters is, do you attempt to grip non-1911 pistols the same way? Glocks, Sigs, Rugers, CZs, Berettas, etc? Guns with very different layouts and configurations. Many might not be compatible with that kind of grip.

The high thumb grip works well on CZ and Taurus pistols with frame-mounted safeties, so (in addition to 1911's) that's what I own and/or shoot. I would imagine that it would work well on Glocks and other pistols that have no safeties at all, and that it would NOT work well on pistols that have safeties/decockers that sweep DOWN to engage.

Having recently tried the high thumb grip, I'm sold on it.

Also, I'd bet the term "hammer bite" is a "catch-all" for cutting, bruising, etc the hand.

I would agree. I find that the biggest benefit of a beavertail lies in preventing the sharp edges of the 'traditional' 1911 grip safety from eating up the palm of my strong-side hand. After a 150-200 rounds, my 'traditional' Colt 1911's will leave me bloody and swollen.