M1A in Afghanistan and Iraq?

[ol' scratch]

An no, I don't mean M-14's, I know those are over there. I just read an article titled "Return of the Battle Rifle" by Richard Venola in G and A. In the article, Venola wrote, "individual battalions have been simply buying commercial M1As from local gun stores for their designated marksmen. Thanks to the Second Amendment, decentralized purchase authority and Springfield Armory, our more enlightened commands can still do that."

Is this true? Does anyone know if battalions are using the M1A?

 

[Birddog1911]

This is the first that I've heard of it, and personally, I highly doubt it. I do know that a number of units have not only sent back to, but bought new, Crazy Horse rifles from Smith Enterprises. I think that the author has an agenda.

 

[jobu07]

Department of the Army has something called a TOE or MTOE (Table of Equipment).

It spells out, in no uncertain terms, what equipment every individual Company is authorized to have and will be issued. They don't purchase weapons on there own.

 

[Birddog1911]

Jobu, it sounds like you know more about how the TOE works, but I do know for a solid fact that there are units in the Army that have bought they're own Crazy Horse rifles. I'll see if I can get the unit's info.

By the way, how bad are you getting hit right now with the snow? Complete white out here in Peyton!

 

[jobu07]

It's died down for a minute, but we've got a good 6 to 8 inches on the ground right now. Looks like it's gonna continue through the night and into tomorrow!

 

[Float Pilot]

We had some Air Guard units (Security Forces, formerly called SPs) who were deployed for base ground defense,,, who obtained (borrowed) the bases markmanship unit M-14s and then decked them out with aftermarket parts bought from various vendors. To include new stocks, scope mounts and scopes. Usually using squadron funds.

 

[possum]

there is not a unit that i have been in or known of in the Big Army that would be allowed too or have the funds to purchase weapons from local gun shops. Maybe that is crazy sounding to me for the fact that i have been in for a while and that is one thing the army just wouldn't do, they have no need too. i guess it is one of those things if you have been around the military you get it, if not you probally don't. it is hard to explain!

 

[CZguy]

i guess it is one of those things if you have been around the military you get it, if not you probally don't. it is hard to explain!

I'm retired Air Force (30 years) Didn't you have a unit "Impact credit card" that's how we bought things that we needed, much faster and many times cheaper than the supply system would have allowed. This is usually administered by a SNCO, but periodically reviewed by the unit C.O.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

The use of non issue weapons is prohibited in both AOs, and for the Army as a whole. The article was incorrect.

 

[cottonmouth]

The 82nd team I was working with has two M14's, one with irons and one with a fatdaddy Leupold on it.

J.B.

 

[Birddog1911]

The use of non issue weapons is prohibited in both AOs, and for the Army as a whole. The article was incorrect.

That was what I was thinking, that the Crazy Horse rifles had to be properly procured, instead of just went out and bought.

 

[GRIZ22]

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/03/army_m14_032210w/

Here is a link to the Army's enhanced battle rifle program.

Units do not buy their own weapons. The service tells them what they will have.

There are limited acquisitions of non standard weapons for special operations personnel but it all goes through the system.

 

[Tirod]

A writer from Guns and Ammo?

There's a reliable source right there. Next will be the History Channel with a report on snipers, and how the 7.62x39 will go through a tank.

Yeah sure.

 

[Coronach]

There may be some truth to it, at least as far as the SEI rifles are concerned. I believe SEI's website documents some of the Crazy Horse rifles being refurbed and sent back out. Three things that stick out to me:

1. It was on the manufacturer's webpage, so one could level a charge of "tweaking" the facts a little. However, it is also a public document (as evidenced by the fact that I found it), and one would think that if it was false, SEI would get tweaked right back.

2. IIRC, the unit in question was one of the HS/LD types (NSW? I can't recall), and they do get a little more leeway with their equipment. Just a little, though.

3. IIRC, the guns in question were not new purchased, but refurbed. As in, SEI had some M14s shipped to them, then refurbed and accurized them and shipped them back. That's a huge step removed from a unit just moseying down to the gun shop and buying 1,000 rifles with petty cash.

Mike

PS Found part of the reference, I think: http://www.smithenterprise.com/support05.html Scroll down a bit, and you'll see reference to SEI reworking 24 M14s for the 101st Airborne.

 

[MarineOne]

There may be some truth to it, at least as far as the SEI rifles are concerned. I believe SEI's website documents some of the Crazy Horse rifles being refurbed and sent back out. Three things that stick out to me:

1. It was on the manufacturer's webpage, so one could level a charge of "tweaking" the facts a little. However, it is also a public document (as evidenced by the fact that I found it), and one would think that if it was false, SEI would get tweaked right back.

2. IIRC, the unit in question was one of the HS/LD types (NSW? I can't recall), and they do get a little more leeway with their equipment. Just a little, though.

3. IIRC, the guns in question were not new purchased, but refurbed. As in, SEI had some M14s shipped to them, then refurbed and accurized them and shipped them back. That's a huge step removed from a unit just moseying down to the gun shop and buying 1,000 rifles with petty cash.

This is what the Marine Corps did at Quantico. They pulled all the Level A packed weapons from storage and had them refurbed/worked on to get them back up to what would be considered a "DMR".

I would supposed the Army (and probably the Navy as well) did the same thing.


Kris

 

[Hacker15E]

Didn't you have a unit "Impact credit card"

FWIW, the term is "IMPAC" -- it's an acronym:

International Merchant Purchase Authorization Card.

 

[John Parker]

The use of non issue weapons is prohibited in both AOs, and for the Army as a whole.

There are exceptions. I used both an Iranian clone MP5 and an Egyptian AK while in Iraq, and used an AKS-74U in Afghanistan. All were purchased locally by the unit that we replaced.

 

[hatchetbearer]

There are exceptions. I used both an Iranian clone MP5 and an Egyptian AK while in Iraq, and used an AKS-74U in Afghanistan. All were purchased locally by the unit that we replaced.

having spent a good deal of time in armory working parties, i know some if not all battalions have a cache of non standard weapons, meant for training scenarios, Fam fires and so on. one in particular (being vague for a reason) had some MN snipers, a Dragunov, Makarov pistols, an RPG-7, AK's and these awesome breakdown scoped galil's that fit into a Tennis racquet's case.

now that I'm done being off topic, I know marine's arent going to be allowed to go and buy civilian M1A's for use (*disclaimer not in a grunt unit*) as I've seen a 1stSgt Rip a Corporal a new one for putting a magpul grip on his m4.

 

[Greyzone]

There are exceptions. I used both an Iranian clone MP5 and an Egyptian AK while in Iraq, and used an AKS-74U in Afghanistan. All were purchased locally by the unit that we replaced.

I got out a long time ago by some of you young folks standards (1985) and there are two aspects of this that some of you seem to be missing.

1. In a combat zone, individuals can and will carry personal firearms in addition to issued firearms.

2. In a combat zone, units will do things that violate the rule book. Just like removing the governors on diesel engines that limited speed in peacetime. Those governors were the first things to go if a unit deployed.

Because the regulations state something doesn't mean it is done that way. The Army had regulations that were routinely violated by enlisted and officers alike in Vietnam because the regulations were stupid and counter-survival. I don't know what the state of the bureaucratic clustermuck in the Pentagon is these days but I doubt it's any clearer than it was in my day, especially given the ass kissing I see from certain officers to climb the totem pole.

So yeah, there's a TOE and then there's everything else we carried because the TOE was not out of date or did not give us the edge we wanted. As another example, I was a field artillery surveyor. We started carrying our own TI-58/TI-59 calculators to speed up surveys for artillery units. About 3 years later those became standard issue but we used them for 3 years before that happened.

And finally, lots depends on the CO of a given unit. I had one CO who had been an NCO himself and was field promoted to lieutenant in Vietnam, then attended OCS later in the states. The guy was great to serve under. Fully cognizant of what the unit could and could not do, and very forgiving when his NCOs wanted to do things to make the unit better but which did not fit the normal TOE or regulations. And I also served under an anal retentive ROTC grad who tried to run things so much "by the book" that he was reassigned to another post within 90 days of him arriving to take command of our firing battery.

TLDR: There are times to follow rules and times to not follow rules. A good CO knows the difference and works with his troops to win the battle and the war, not to be a stiff necked enforcer of useless regs. So while acquisition of M1As may not be "official" I don't think you can simply dismiss it as impossible.

 

[jobu07]

Greyzone,

A couple of things. Times change as we all know. What was happening in country last year is different from what is happening right now. Just the same as what the military was doing during peace time is different than wartime.

Also, as things change, you were able to get away with more during peace time than this army is during war time. Reason being is the increased media presence with us. You can't turn around in country without having to take an imbed out with you on patrol. The increased presence from them means an increased awareness by the population. And if the population has the opportunity to see more, the CoC will scrutinize more on what is and what is not going to be allowed.

For instance, your point of governors. I served as a Company XO in an Infantry Company for over a year. Our Battalion Commander said he was enforcing the standards - so removing the governor on the Bradleys was a safety deadline and the vehicle wasn't allowed to be operated until repaired. And the mechanics are obligated to follow thier commander's orders.

Like I, as a Platoon Leader, had to follow all of my commander's orders. We didn't like them all, but we did. And you're right about knowing when to bend the rules and when to follow them. Units have cracked down captured weapons now. Policy is to destroy them. I know some guys keep them in there vehicles, just in case. But this is a violation of the rules and you can into some serious trouble. Units will also bring some demilled weapons back for training purposed with proper paperwork.

It's all going to come down to your own CoC and what they'll tolerate. However, I never took the unit purchase card down to my local FFL and said lets order some guns. We do take the unit purchase out to local FFL's, amongst other stores, and order gear. Some gentlemen here have already commented on the supply system and how it sucks. The issue stuff is really one size fits all so we'd purchase unit equipment that was a bit more specialized for our Joes. Just one that I pulled off the top of my head, MOLLE SAW pouches. They don't issue'em so we buy'em.

Anyway, i'm getting off topic now. So it all depends on your unit, I guess, and how willing they are to adhere to thier assigned MTOE. FWIW, YMMV, just my $0.02.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Well to be fair, picking up one of the less crappy AKs and keeping it in your truck is a far cry from your unit actually buying civilian rifles and having the lot of the shipped to you overseas. And while the first one can and does happen, that doesn't mean it's within regs. You do what you can get away with and what will stay under the radar. Having civilian rifles shipped to you most certainly will catch the eye of some senior enlisted/officers.

 

[LeverGunJunkie]

Nothing like a bitter NCO to add his cynical "professional" analysis to an otherwise intelligent discussion.

 

[Snakum]

Nothing like a bitter NCO to add his cynical "professional" analysis to an otherwise intelligent discussion.

Ouch!

And as mentioned ... Big Army is refurbing old M-14s and M-21s thru SEI for DMs. The thought of a DM carrying a bone stock, base model Springfield M1A on ops is more than a little bit laughable imho. Not the OPs fault though. Gun rags will print almost any kind of crap. Like bragging on the FN-based SASS weapon that will barely break 2 MOA. Gotta get those ad dollars in somehow.

 

[jobu07]

I'm not sure there are any bitter NCO's in this discussion.

 

[Snakum]

Hey, I have the serial number for the M21 I used in school in my log book somewhere. I wonder if some poor grunt is slogging thru the sand with it, in updated form?