M1a inconsistent/bloody mess/take 2

[Megawatt maker]

Ok. I posted a thread a few days ago about my Loaded M1A suddenly becoming very inconsistent.

I determined, or so I thought, that shims behind the gas block solved the problem, and it did...for 2 days.

After I though I'd fixed the Springfield, I turned to work on my old Norinco Knock off M1A. I shimmed its gas block, and dug out an old GI unissued fiberglass stock I've had for years. It had to be fitted to the Norinco..but once I did...WOW. It was a 3 MOA rifle...no matter what was done to it. After the shims and stock..it's a 1.5 MOA rifle. And very consistent at that.
I took both rifles to the range when I tested the Norinco. After I was done with it, I broke out the Springfield to see if it still held zero.

ABSOLUTELY NOT! In fact, it no longer even grouped at 100 yards. Shotguns make better patterns. 8 inch groups at 100, off the paper at 200.
Again, nothing was changed. It did sub MOA when I put it away...didn't even clean it..knew I'd be shooting it again soon.
Now...WTH?

So, first step was look at everything. Sure enough..the front band was loose again! After being shimmed. It was tight, now it's not. Not terribly loose, but not as tight as it was.
I took the bi pod off, used sand bags and tried again....NOT EVEN ON PAPER at 100 yards.
Now I'm pissed. Checked it all out again..outside a very little movement in the front band...nothing else loose.
On a whim, I opened the flap on the buttstock and tried shooting it again, with the flap used to stabilize..via Full auto style.
Pulled the trigger...CLICK...no bang. Light strike on primer...
Cycled another round...click...no bang.
Put light strike back in mag...cycled it in..BANG..it goes off. Next one doesn't.
WHAT IN THE ACTUAL HELL IS GOING ON HERE?
put the flap back down..pulled the trigger..bang bang click! Light strike again!
Pull the trigger group (its an adjustable Raider trigger group)..swapped in the crappy trigger group off the norinco sitting beside me. Cycled in a a round...CLICK...no bang...Light strike again!
Put Raider trigger group in Norino, with same ammo and mag I'd been using...Bang bang bang bang...no problem.
NOW I'm pissed off and stumped.

I'm sitting there, scatching my ballz like dumbfounded monkey wondering what is wrong with this thing...and I see it. Light showing between the receiver and stock..where it shouldn't be.

The stock is WARPED...BIG TIME!
I swapped stocks with the norinco..despite it being fitted to the Norinco receiver, the Springfield fit, albeit..very loosely.

Bang bang bang bang..AND...it's returned to zero..but with a little bigger groups (stock loose is the cause)..

The stock is complete junk. Solid Walnut, heavy, OEM Springfield stock (I've heard that Boyd's supplies them to SA..but don't know that for sure)..

Here's what I THINK may have happened.
I keep this rifle in a house, humidity controlled 24/7..And I have a golden rod in the safe itself. The stock was very dry. It didn't come very well sealed from SA..in my opinion..and what I think happened...I've been shooting it in very high humidity weather the last week or so..and I think the stock absorbed water like a sponge..and has warped..very very suddenly, and progressively.

It's the only explanation I've got.

I just ordered a chassis. I thought about calling SA about it...but they would only replace the stock. I'm done with wood on an M1A. If this happened like this...I hate to see what happened back in the day in the jungles of Vietnam. There is a reason why the Army and Marines came up with fiberglass stocks for these. I now see why...first hand.

Anyway..that my update. Doesn't pay to keep your safe too dry..it turns out. Unless I'm just whacked..which wouldn't be the first time.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Same thing happened to wood-stocked M14s in Nam.
My Loaded had the black polymer SA stock. It looked cheap but shot great.

 

[Charlie98]

When I bought my M1a, it came in USGI fiberglass. Not a big fan of it, so I ordered a surplus walnut USGI from Fred’s. Holy Toledo! … the accuracy went to complete poo, and this was with a shimmed gas lock. Dropped it back into glass, and right back on target. So… the stock can definitely affect accuracy.

 

[trackskippy]

The three "early" M1A's I had all had walnut stocks and all shot well. They all got regular and numerous coats of BLO three or four times a year, inside and out, and were shot year round in all weather in matches and general use.

The last M1A I had was a SOCOM, and it was nothing like those early guns.

The stock that gun came with was a black SA glass stock, that was actually a USGI stock that had been mutilated by SA (they swore up and down that it wasnt, but it was obvious right off as the extracted brass that kept hitting the sock knocked the paint off and exposed the GI "brown" underneath), and had the molded in checkering ground off and what looked like a light coat of bed liner on it.

That gun had issues from the giddy up, but accuracy wise, considering the sights, it shot OK. Nothing special though.

While I had it, I put it in both USGI walnut and fiberglass stocks from Freds, and while it looked better, nothing else changed.

Early on, mid 80's to early 90's, I had nothing but good to say about Springfield. Great guns, rifles and handguns and fairly reasonably priced to boot. By the late 90's, early 2000's, my experience had shifted 180° and I really couldn't say anything good about them and mostly cursed the ones I was dumb enough to have continued to buy.

Since you hear so often on the gun boards that they have a great CS department (that should be a hint right there), and considering what you likely paid for the rifle, I would send it back to them and tell them to make it right. Maybe youll luck out and they will.

 

[Megawatt maker]

The three "early" M1A's I had all had walnut stocks and all shot well. They all got regular and numerous coats of BLO three or four times a year, inside and out, and were shot year round in all weather in matches and general use.

The last M1A I had was a SOCOM, and it was nothing like those early guns.

The stock that gun came with was a black SA glass stock, that was actually a USGI stock that had been mutilated by SA (they swore up and down that it wasnt, but it was obvious right off as the extracted brass that kept hitting the sock knocked the paint off and exposed the GI "brown" underneath), and had the molded in checkering ground off and what looked like a light coat of bed liner on it.

That gun had issues from the giddy up, but accuracy wise, considering the sights, it shot OK. Nothing special though.

While I had it, I put it in both USGI walnut and fiberglass stocks from Freds, and while it looked better, nothing else changed.

Early on, mid 80's to early 90's, I had nothing but good to say about Springfield. Great guns, rifles and handguns and fairly reasonably priced to boot. By the late 90's, early 2000's, my experience had shifted 180° and I really couldn't say anything good about them and mostly cursed the ones I was dumb enough to have continued to buy.

Since you hear so often on the gun boards that they have a great CS department (that should be a hint right there), and considering what you likely paid for the rifle, I would send it back to them and tell them to make it right. Maybe youll luck out and they will.

My experience with SA customer service the one time I did use it..was, well, a hassle.

Bought one of their scopes back in the late 90s, early 2000s, I couldn't remember when exactly, and it went bad. Called them, they said no problem, just put a copy of the receipt in with the scope, they'll replace it.

Receipt? From 20 years ago...ya, no, don't got that anymore. Don't even have the box after 4 moves, and multiple cleans outs since then.

SA customer service...Sorry, we can't help you!

Needless to say, I got heated, and starting sending Emails up the food chain. After a few email exchanges with a few higher ups...they did make good..I sent the scope, they sent me a Vortex Viper HST as a replacement (poor substitute, in my opinion, the SA scope had the internal bubble..which was a great feature, and the Vortex, just doesn't have the same feel).

So, ya, I should send it back to them..this time, I do have the paperwork, and I registered it with SA when I bought it (something I did with all my SA products after the scope fiasco)...but I know what it will be. At best, they will replace the stock, most likely, they will try to tell me it's fine...it's my scope, I don't know how to shoot, bad ammo...etc, anything but the rifles fault...or they could even reject it because I shimmed the gas block...and they will say that voids the warranty.

No..not willing to go through that..when, at best, I'll only get another stock that will likely do it again unless I put Tru oil, or linseed..or whatever on it.

I'll pass. I ordered a chassis.

 

[d2wing]

The M-14's I shot in the service were very accurate. Wooden stocks were not common.

 

[mshootnit]

A lot of people try to get the oldwr ones for the USGI parts, but my 2008 National Match outshot my friends AR10(T) in groups at 200meters. I had a Bassett low mount and Leupold scope on it.
My current 2012 shoots well too.

 

[Pat Riot]

You Gents are helping me to feel so much better about buying a Ruger SFAR. I considered holding off for an M1A. I shot M14s in the Navy. Tomorrow morning I shoot the SFAR. I hope I am still grinning tomorrow afternoon.

 

[Megawatt maker]

You Gents are helping me to feel so much better about buying a Ruger SFAR. I considered holding off for an M1A. I shot M14s in the Navy. Tomorrow morning I shoot the SFAR. I hope I am still grinning tomorrow afternoon.

Oh, just a minute there...lol.

Sorry, Ruger, ya, no...lol.

Yes, the M1A has proven to be a finicky, cantankerous SOB to deal with. That's only this one I'm dealing with...a Loaded.

I have a Match that I put back in cold storage, simply because they have stopped making them.

THAT rifle is just fine. Sub MOA..all day, every day, all weather..however, I know it is finite.

The common problem is wood stocks...at least that I see so far. The Norico improved greatly when I replaced the wood with fiberglass. I'm very sure the Loaded will benefit greatly when I get the chassis.

If we really want to get down to it, as in which platform is better...of coarse its an AR platform. Just too easy to modify, easier to correct problems...and they just plain work.

This debate has been going on since the M14 first morphed out of John Garands design to replace the M1 Garand. The M14 is basically a Frankenstein rifle...element from the M1, a gas system first designed in the 1930s (The White system)...and a WHOLE lots of Pentagon brass throwing their weight around during the trails against the FAL..(which clearly won the competition...but hey, America, we were buying an American rifle...no matter how F'ed it was).

The point isnt to say the M1A is the superior platform (most definitely IS NOT...LOL)..it's more like a love/hate thing. I love it, but I hate how frustrating it's is...BUT, when it works...is just WORKS, and puts a giant big smile on my face.

Push comes to shove...SHTF, Chinese invasion, Zombie overrun..I won't be grabbing my M1A anyway...that would be one of my AKs...just because if you absolutely must kill everything that moves...the AK will just do it...

 

[Pat Riot]

Oh, just a minute there...lol.

Sorry, Ruger, ya, no...lol.

Yes, the M1A has proven to be a finicky, cantankerous SOB to deal with. That's only this one I'm dealing with...a Loaded.

I have a Match that I put back in cold storage, simply because they have stopped making them.

THAT rifle is just fine. Sub MOA..all day, every day, all weather..however, I know it is finite.

The common problem is wood stocks...at least that I see so far. The Norico improved greatly when I replaced the wood with fiberglass. I'm very sure the Loaded will benefit greatly when I get the chassis.

If we really want to get down to it, as in which platform is better...of coarse its an AR platform. Just too easy to modify, easier to correct problems...and they just plain work.

This debate has been going on since the M14 first morphed out of John Garands design to replace the M1 Garand. The M14 is basically a Frankenstein rifle...element from the M1, a gas system first designed in the 1930s (The White system)...and a WHOLE lots of Pentagon brass throwing their weight around during the trails against the FAL..(which clearly won the competition...but hey, America, we were buying an American rifle...no matter how F'ed it was).

The point isnt to say the M1A is the superior platform (most definitely IS NOT...LOL)..it's more like a love/hate thing. I love it, but I hate how frustrating it's is...BUT, when it works...is just WORKS, and puts a giant big smile on my face.

Push comes to shove...SHTF, Chinese invasion, Zombie overrun..I won't be grabbing my M1A anyway...that would be one of my AKs...just because if you absolutely must kill everything that moves...the AK will just do it...

Thanks. I know the history of the Garand, M14 & M1A. Also, I have a Garand chambered in .308.

My point was I debated long and hard about a .308 semiauto and decided on a Ruger SFAR. My money. My choice.

If you ever see me in here complaining about it just go ahead and whip out that “I told you so” card.

 

[Megawatt maker]

Thanks. I know the history of the Garand, M14 & M1A. Also, I have a Garand chambered in .308.

My point was I debated long and hard about a .308 semiauto and decided on a Ruger SFAR. My money. My choice.

If you ever see me in here complaining about it just go ahead and whip out that “I told you so” card.

Hey, your money bro...didn't mean any insult. Not a thing wrong with Ruger, it's just not my personal preference brand is all.

 

[valnar]

Anyway..that my update. Doesn't pay to keep your safe too dry..it turns out.

On a related subject, how dry is your safe? I assume you have a humidity meter?

 

[Charlie98]

The M1a is a niche rifle... plain and simple. It is not a 'logical' choice, not from the standpoint of adaptability, accessories, weight, maintenance, tuning, optics, etc, where the AR-10 and other platforms overshadow it, but the same could be said for rifles like the HK, the FAL, and probably some other battle rifles. They were designed for battle, not tricking out. It is a rewarding rifle, much like the Garand is, however, and if you are a 'wood and steel' kind of guy, it's a reasonable choice.

 

[usaral63]

Might just be me but in all truth I have never seen a malfunction in a 14 other than from a crappy after market mag. I carried a 14 during my army time, shot a match grade in competition during that time and currently own a James River model. During the service period I put literally thousands rounds thru those rifles.....not a hitch. That said, I am aware of one fella that's a member of the club I'm in that has been thru two M1A,s.........I think both were the loaded models and BOTH have been nothing but a problem....extractors broken along with poor accuracy. Conversely my JR has never failed in any manner, course other than for the receiver (Bula) and bbl (Bula) all the parts are H&R.........stock was a lightly used wooden version that happened to have decent figure and that was dry as it could be when it arrived......some BLO took care of that and it's good to go as is.

I considered SA , as well as other brands including the Chinese variants but overall the JR seemed the best call. I may well have paid a bit more, but I got more !

 

[roval]

i scoped my M1A with a sadlak mount after checking if the mounting holes were to spec. they were. mount was torqued to specs . i couldn't hit 225 yrd gongs consistently. it drove me crazy. i finally took it off and saw brass marks at the bottom of the windage turret. i sold the scope for a steep discount to one of the range officers who mounted it onto an AR and was happy with it.

 

[Megawatt maker]

On a related subject, how dry is your safe? I assume you have a humidity meter?

No I don't. Good idea to get one.

 

[Megawatt maker]

i scoped my M1A with a sadlak mount after checking if the mounting holes were to spec. they were. mount was torqued to specs . i couldn't hit 225 yrd gongs consistently. it drove me crazy. i finally took it off and saw brass marks at the bottom of the windage turret. i sold the scope for a steep discount to one of the range officers who mounted it onto an AR and was happy with it.

I have adjustable gas plugs on all three of my M1As, so the brass comes out as slow as possible, and into a nice little pile close by.

Before I stalled one on the Norico, it beat the hell out of the mount, scope, operating handle, stock. The rifle would come home covered with brass dings over over it. It was never a MOA rifle, not till recently anyway. I'm not sure if the wild brass hurt its accuracy or not...but certainly couldn't have helped.

The windage knob is spring loaded (Nikon), but I kinda doubt it changed it.

The SA loaded only had a handful of rounds out of it before I put the new plug in..and the Match had one in it when I bought it (bought very lightly used from a friend).

They do make a big difference...I know that much. Not sure if they are match legal or not...I don't shoot in matches, so it's immaterial for me.

 

[marksman13]

You Gents are helping me to feel so much better about buying a Ruger SFAR. I considered holding off for an M1A. I shot M14s in the Navy. Tomorrow morning I shoot the SFAR. I hope I am still grinning tomorrow afternoon.

You made the right choice. I love the M1A/M14. Carried one as an DMR in Iraq. But, it just can’t compete with the AR in terms of accuracy, reliability or modularity.

 

[Pat Riot]

Hey, your money bro...didn't mean any insult. Not a thing wrong with Ruger, it's just not my personal preference brand is all.

Not a problem at all. I hope you have a great weekend.

 

[roval]

I have adjustable gas plugs on all three of my M1As, so the brass comes out as slow as possible, and into a nice little pile close by.

Before I stalled one on the Norico, it beat the hell out of the mount, scope, operating handle, stock. The rifle would come home covered with brass dings over over it. It was never a MOA rifle, not till recently anyway. I'm not sure if the wild brass hurt its accuracy or not...but certainly couldn't have helped.

The windage knob is spring loaded (Nikon), but I kinda doubt it changed it.

The SA loaded only had a handful of rounds out of it before I put the new plug in..and the Match had one in it when I bought it (bought very lightly used from a friend).

They do make a big difference...I know that much. Not sure if they are match legal or not...I don't shoot in matches, so it's immaterial for me.

it was easier to shoot the same gongs afterwards with the iron sights. it was that bad with the scope. i have been shooting the M1A occasionally with the gas port closed so it is easier to collect the brass. i wonder why i didn't try that when the scope was still on.

 

[Megawatt maker]

it was easier to shoot the same gongs afterwards with the iron sights. it was that bad with the scope. i have been shooting the M1A occasionally with the gas port closed so it is easier to collect the brass. i wonder why i didn't try that when the scope was still on.

I wish my eyes were young again. Once upon a time, I swore I'd never put a scope on my M1a...but age catches us all.

I shot expert in the Army, with iron sights. Sadly, those days are long behind me now. Eyes just won't cooperate with my ego anymore. I need the scope.

Curse you father time!

 

[roval]

I wish my eyes were young again. Once upon a time, I swore I'd never put a scope on my M1a...but age catches us all.

I shot expert in the Army, with iron sights. Sadly, those days are long behind me now. Eyes just won't cooperate with my ego anymore. I need the scope.

Curse you father time!

same here but only 57. just tougher to shoot when the front sight is wider than the target.

 

[Megawatt maker]

Ok. Update time.

Got the chassis already. Midway didn't waste any time...was perhaps the fastest shipment I've gotten from them yet.


I like it! It's only an Archangel, but its not as junk as I thought it would be. A JPE wasn't in my budget..not for a while. Maybe later..but I'm actually surprised with this. It's TIGHT TIGHT TIGHT, but didn't require any fitting. None what so ever..but locking the trigger group was a major pain.

Next..range results..
That's a three shot group! Looks like two...trust me..it's three! Highly impressive! That 100 yards. The chassis changed the zero bigtime..that was the first shots before rezero.
I didn't grab pictures of the 200- 500 yard targets...but it stayed Sub MOA the whole way. I even hit a spray paint can at 500!..
I did get a photo if the 600 yard target...


I simply love it. As I said in an earlier post...when it works...it just puts a great big smile on your face! It shots better than it ever did!

The real test will be in cooler weather...or in the rain. It was 84, sunny and calm wind today. If it holds zero in cooler weather...that would be swell!

 

[nettlle]

Just can't keep the pesky AR guys out of a M1A thread.

 

[Megawatt maker]

Just can't keep the pesky AR guys out of a M1A thread.

Naw...it's all good. I don't mind it. A little rivalry never hurt anything. I'm an AR guy too.

Honest, the AR platform is simply better, but I like fighting crusades. But still, has I've shown in the photos...a well tuned M1A is still pretty hard to beat. I don't have an AR in my arsenal that can print groups like that...close...but not that good.

So..take that AR boys!