M1A VS Sig 716 VS SCAR 17s VS FN FAL

[Huntolive]

I am in market for a DEPENDABLE when your life depends on it, Accurate, Rugged, Easy to maintain
762 x.51/308 semi auto that will be ready to answer the call if needed and possible hog and occasional deer hunting (though I usually use a savage 220 for deer). I also want a gun that can be carried into the field if needed (read light weight, but still 308 capable, so under 10 lbs), and prefer something with a shorter, manuverable barrel length.

I had a CETME; was way too heavy and bulky. Have a DPMS in 308 that I consider unreliable that I will trade/sell to someone who adores breaking down and cleaning AR's and dealing w/ FTE/cycle or is willing to always use high dollar ammo.

Looking at Springfield M1A's, Sig. 716, SCAR 17s, FN FAL and Ruger sr 762.

Please help.

 

[Llama Bob]

AR10s have taken over the .308 gas gun world. I would start there.

 

[Reloadron]

Generally SHTF threads are frowned upon and short lived.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=10210445&postcount=51

Just as an example.

Ron

 

[adcoch1]

For the money the cetme or ptr rifles are probably the best pick for overall, but an ar10 is going to be easier to get accessories for and will probably be more accurate, easy to work on etc. I went the FAL route every time i wanted a 308 semi auto, and have had mixed luck. Fal's take some tweaking to run perfect sometimes. the M1a is awesomely expensive. And it also isn't very accurate for the lower priced ones, but incredibly dependable i hear. I couldn't afford one the couple of times i looked into them.

Sent from my LGLS740 using Tapatalk

 

[bannockburn]

Huntolive

My experiences are limited in .308 semi-auto service rifles to the M1A, HK 91, and the FN FAL. All are very reliable and serviceable designs and currently there are shorter, more compact versions of the M1A available from Springfield Armory (SOCOM 16, SOCOM 16 CQB, and Scout Squad), that would work well in the brush for hog and deer hunting. I like the overall balance and handling of the FAL, especially their folding stock versions. An HK91 (or PTR 91), is also a decent platform to go with though I didn't care for the ergonomics of it as much as with the other two rifles.

 

[agtman]

The M1As and the 7.62/.308 ARs are two completely different platforms.

You've already decided that it's got to be a .30-cal semiauto, so you really need to think about the choice of platform in relation to your stated objectives.

While both platforms can produce acceptable - and if tweaked enough even outstanding - accuracy, the 30-cal ARs have it all over the M1A in terms of ease of modularity. RDSs, mounts, scopes, bipods, stock choices, ... et al.

If you do pursue one of the .30-cal AR brands, I'd recommend avoiding any that require pricey factory proprietary/non-SR25 mags. The common and reasonably-priced Magpul 7.62 mags are SR-25 mags.

Final point: some .30-cal ARs come from the factory in heavy-weight form, or they quickly become heavier as you start hanging *stuff* on them. More manufacturers are now coming out with "light-weight" variants of their early models, although, again, once you add optics, bipod, etc., it can become a load to hump real fast.

 

[Jackal]

More manufacturers are now coming out with "light-weight" variants of their early models, although, again, once you add optics, bipod, etc., it can become a load to hump real fast.

Yup, I like my 6lb 14oz DPMS G2 AP4 .308. Yes that is an Odinworks adjustable gas block hiding behind/through the YHM BMAS front sight. Its going to be wearing an Griffin Recce 7 very soon.

 

[agtman]

That 6lb DPMS is real nice, Jackal.

 

[Jackal]

That 6lb DPMS is real nice, Jackal.

Thanks. Its lighter than my AR pistol...

 

[Nature Boy]

Assume for a moment that the 'S' doesn't 'HTF'

Does it change your list?

You want something that you'll enjoy shooing. Right? I have an M1A that fits that category in spades.

If the 'S' really does 'HTF' we'll all be grabbing whatever we can get our hands on.

 

[Coal Dragger]

SCAR 17S all day every day.

It's accurate, relatively light weight, has proven highly reliable in military service, and is easy to mount optics to.

Downsides are high price of entry, and the rifle is tough on cheap optics.

 

[agtman]

SCAR 17S all day every day.* * * Downsides are high price of entry, and the rifle is tough on cheap optics.

And pricey proprietary, non-SR25 mags.

Definitely a great light-weight .30-cal AR, but the SCAR-17s is already pricey and the factory mags needed to feed it just add to the overall cost.

 

[silicosys4]

Keep in mind that there is no standardized AR10 pattern at this time that I'm aware of.

Most are proprietary designs, and will require proprietary parts to maintain or fix. Good luck if that source is not available. My vote goes to the FAL, but I'm admittedly biased

 

[Robert]

Stick to the rifles, any talk of fantasy SHTF or tinfoil hattery will be shut down and infracted as off topic.

What is accurate? 2-3 MOA is acceptable for a battle rifle in field conditions. I am going to throw out the SCAR because I simply don't have $2000+ to spend on a rifle. The Sig I know nothing about so that leaves he M1A, FAL, and for the sake of argument a 308 AR.

Think of the FAL as the AK of the free world. used by over 90 countries since the 60s. Pretty damn good ergos, will eat any ammo you throw at it and is 2-3 MOA all day long with most any ammo. Down side, only a few people making/ assembling them and the supply of cheap mags is drying up. If I did not already have one an 10 mags to feed it I would not invest in this as a do all end all rifle. Great rifles but there is little after market support. Mounting optics is somewhat easy with the DSA top cover but then you need a cheek rest for the proper alignment.

The M1A is a good rifle, can be more accurate than the FAL and has been a favorite of many people for a good number of years. My experience is limited but I found them heavy and the ergos very lacking compared to the FAL. Mags are about like the FAL, not hard to find good one, just hard to find good ones cheap. Optics can be mounted but it is not designed for it and your cheek weld is going to be on par or worse than the scoped FAL.

AR 308 have really dropped in price and have gained a huge following in recent years. While not universally interchangeable like their little brother, they have a fair degree of over lap. The AR 308 fall into two major camps, Armalite and DPMS pattern, with numerous other makers doing their own thing. If you stick to one of the two major patterns you will find that they have almost AR 15 level of aftermarket following. Off the rack they are generally more accurate than the FAL and M1A and tend to be very rugged as well. Mounting optics is as easy as an AR 15 and many of the aftermarket triggers, stocks, and other parts from an AR 15 will work on an AR 308. I am currently building, almost finished minus the optics, a DPMS pattern AR 308 to supplement my FAL and AR 15.

I have run my FAL hard and I am confident in its, and my, ability to make hits out past 400y using only iron sights. The only time it let me down I forgot to oil it, so that is on me. If I had to right now, I'd be very confident with grabbing my FAL for whatever may arise.

Keep in mind that there is no standardized AR10 pattern at this time that I'm aware of.

Most are proprietary designs, and will require proprietary parts to maintain or fix. Good luck if that source is not available. My vote goes to the FAL, but I'm admittedly biased

5 years ago this was the case, but no more. The DPMS pattern has become the most widely accepted pattern and parts are easy to come by and require no special fitting. The Armalite pattern is gaining acceptance but DPMS still has the strongest following.

 

[Kruff]

I have owned several 308's and only have one left.
A Spring Armory M1A national match, Bushmaster w/ 16' barrel and magpul furniture.....I forget what model they called it, and a STG58.

I still have the STG58.

 

[Huntolive]

Thanks to all, THR is the Best

Wow, that was fast (responses) and very helpful.
Yes the SCAR 17s is expensive, but is it worth it? If so why is it worth it?

So many of you raised great points in a few hours that I can't respond to each of you by name, but you are right that it's really about having a servicable weapon that I enjoy shooting and can train to shoot well regardless of future events. So lets throw as assessment of comfortable shooting and gun's inherent ability to keep the shooter back on target into the equation.

I see the FN FAL is recommended by many members, and also by a good friend of mine who is a Marine foreign weapons trainer. Looks like i could get one new for about $1000, and save about $1800 instead of getting the SCAR (that's alot of ammo and mags ) So if the FN FAL (im looking at a DSA FAL) is as accurate and dependable as a M1A (im lookin at the scout squad for about $1550 new) Maybe that is a good way to go. Can the FN FAL shoot steel ammo reliably?

I have a DPMS in 308 from about 7 years ago, but I have issues w/ stove pipes and some jams, especially w/ cheap ammo. I possibly just need to break it all the way down for deep cleaning more often and run it w/ alot more oil. Or it could be just a cheaper lower quality gun.

What about the DI (direct impingement/classic AR action) vs the gas piston in AR style like the Sig. Sauer 716 and Ruger sr 762 for reliability, low maintanence and accuracy?

I could see the 16" brl versions of the M1A being great for my applications, as a member suggested for hunting, but Can I even mount a traditional 3x9x40 scope on it ( one w/ 3-4 inch eye relief) or do I need some kind of special "scout scope" and what the heck is that?

Also please do tell more about the STG 58 and PTR or HK 91? I know even less about those.

Thanks

 

[Robert]

STG 58 is a FAL.

What does a $2300 SCAR do that any of the others don't do at half the price?

A gas piston on an AR is a solution looking for a problem. The DI system work just fine.

The FAL will cycle rocks if thy had powder...

 

[FL-NC]

I would NOT go with the M1A (expensive, heavy, not optics friendly). I carried a M21 and M25 for a time so I have some practical experience. Most of the FN's except the very high-end/ high priced ones from DSA don't shoot as accurately as I would like, and aren't as optics friendly as I would like. Also rails are an add-on, and decent FN rails are pricey. If you like the AR I would go with the Ruger. Quality products for the price, excellent customer service. The Sig is probably pretty nice too, I only fired the 516 though. Unless you could get a deal (I think they have a LE program) I would pick the Ruger over it. The SCAR 17 isn't a bad gun at all. I had the opportunity to really wring out a few in training, and a few of the people I worked with used them overseas and liked them. I would say between the Ruger and the SCAR, pick one or the other based on price and what you like. I like AR's but that's just me.

 

[Huntolive]

Thanks Robert and everyone and APR 308 Hunter?

Thanks guys,

anyone heard good or bad about the Alexandria P R company out of MN, USA?
I can get a good deal on a APR 308 Hunter. It is an AR style. Any insight?

Also, where can I get a SCAR for $2300? That's $400 less than I've seen one.

 

[FL-NC]

OP- just try this with your DPMS "problem child":
1. DEEP cleaning- get all of the crud out of it. Pay special attention to the chamber- use a 45 caliber pistol brush and patches.
2. Really clean the whole BCG- all lube/ carbon OUT. Make it DRY.
3. Use a conservative amount of white lithium grease (about $2 a tube at auto zone) on the "walls" of the upper where the BCG rides, and in the cam pin recess. Use q tips to apply this.
4. Use a more liberal amount of the grease on the BCG- especially in the recess in the bolt head under the extractor, and all over the bolt head, including between the locking lugs. Also a liberal amount in the carrier where the back of the bolt head slides back and forth.
5. Take it to the range and shoot it. AR10 types are very unforgiving of lack of lube, and liquid lubes evaporate or "blast out" pretty quick- grease sticks around much longer. PMAGS are often more reliable than the metal ones that come with the DPMS rifles.

Just try this once before you forsake that DPMS as unreliable. If you are still unhappy, re-visit the idea of a new rifle. These are lessons we learned over time with 308 AR's in the military.

 

[Coal Dragger]

STG 58 is a FAL.

What does a $2300 SCAR do that any of the others don't do at half the price?

A gas piston on an AR is a solution looking for a problem. The DI system work just fine.

The FAL will cycle rocks if thy had powder...

Well Robert really good FAL's are more than half the price of the SCAR, for example offerings from DSA. Once you get it ready for an optic you're only within a few hundred dollars of the SCAR.

I'd currently choose the SCAR 17S for the following reasons if I were in the market for a semi-auto 7.62mm rifle:

1.) I know an individual who was issued one, who's opinion I trust, and he had overwhelmingly positive things to say about the SCAR 17.

2.) Most reasonable weight and size of any 7.62 NATO semi-auto that is battle tested.

3.) Known durability and reliability.

4.) Good reputation for accurate barrels, plus from a longevity standpoint it is tough to argue against a cold hammer forged barrel with a chrome lined bore and chamber. Especially one that should do around 1.0-1.5 MOA with decent ammo.

5.) Optics friendly 1913 rail integral on upper reciever, and an adjustable cheek riser on the standard stock.

6.) Excellent ballistic calibrated iron sights are standard.

7.) Last time I checked FN-USA is including a coupon for a Geissele Super SCAR trigger with the purchase of any SCAR rifle. So you get a nice safe two stage trigger.

8.) You can convert the rifle to run SR-25 style mags with a new lower.

9.) User changeable barrels with no need of vice blocks, or special tools. Granted barrels are tough to come by.

I am not going to tell anyone the other choices are bad, just that for my listed reasons would be my choice. I'm lucky to have a good job where I can afford to buy a few nice guns every now and then, so cost is not prohibitive with the SCAR 17S.

 

[Nuclear]

If recoil is an issue, the SCAR has the least felt recoil of any 7.62x51 I've ever shot.

 

[Kruff]

The STG is Austria's version of the FN FAL. Mine came with a bipod that folds up against the handguard but I didn't care for it and took it off.
It also has the full auto switch but is disconnected of course.

I bought a Trilux scope for mine a while back but didn't like it much. The scope and mount added more weight to an already fairly heavy rifle and a cheek weld was impossible. I removed it and use the stock sights now.

 

[smitty22gunr]

The M1As and the 7.62/.308 ARs are two completely different platforms.

You've already decided that it's got to be a .30-cal semiauto, so you really need to think about the choice of platform in relation to your stated objectives.

While both platforms can produce acceptable - and if tweaked enough even outstanding - accuracy, the 30-cal ARs have it all over the M1A in terms of ease of modularity. RDSs, mounts, scopes, bipods, stock choices, ... et al.

If you do pursue one of the .30-cal AR brands, I'd recommend avoiding any that require pricey factory proprietary/non-SR25 mags. The common and reasonably-priced Magpul 7.62 mags are SR-25 mags.

Final point: some .30-cal ARs come from the factory in heavy-weight form, or they quickly become heavier as you start hanging *stuff* on them. More manufacturers are now coming out with "light-weight" variants of their early models, although, again, once you add optics, bipod, etc., it can become a load to hump real fast.[/

If dependability really matters, forget about what the mags will cost.
My Armalite AR-10 is the most dependable rifle I've ever owned. Armalite mags cost more than the aftermarket mags many other .308 ARs take, and I do wish they were cheaper, but the Armalite mags are made from steel and work like they're supposed to. Worth the money, in other words.

 

[Robert]

I am not saying the SCAR is not a good rifle, I am saying it is way over priced and out of my budget. All of the rifles listed, except possibly the Sig, are all to one degree or another battle tested. The FAL more so than the others. All of them are solid choices I just have a hard time paying for a SCAR when I can get a FAL or M1A with optics or a half a case of ammo for the same price. Again nothing wrong with the SCAR just not my thing.