M77/44, Ruger American 300blk or 450bm for deer

[someguy2800]

Its not a big deal with a bolt action, but the real shame of the 450 bushmaster is that they didn't use the 7.62x51 as the parent case. If they would have designed the chamber to use trimmed down 7.62x51 cases like the 45 Raptor it would be way more popular. Thats the only reason I haven't built an AR upper in it yet, brass is too expensive.

 

[SARuger]

This was a M77/44 vs Ruger American Ranch 300blk vs Ruger American Ranch 450bm

Which would you pick for woods deer hunting?

Currently Gallery of Guns is out of both Ruger American Ranch rifles

 

[SARuger]

And while searching for a Ruger American Ranch, I found a Gunsight Scout in 450bm

So that's a game changer for me since I have Gunsight in .308 and it's my favorite mountain/field deer rifle. Unfortunately I cant use it on this hunt lease.

So for a couple hundred more than the M77/44 I could have a very good rifle in 450bm.

Decisions

 

[jmorris]

If you are limited to 75 yards and just going to be hunting with it, I’d pick the 450 BM.

Any of the suggestion here would kill a deer at that range with decent shot placement.

Not sure what “optics” you want on a bolt action but I’d be looking for one that starts with 1x-... if 75 yards is a long shot due to brush. Even then be hard for a bolt gun in the 300 or 450 to beat out your 1894 with irons.

 

[wanderinwalker]

SARuger, you already reload for .44 Magnum, you've always wanted a 77/44 AND you have an excuse to buy it because of your hunt club rules! Tell me again why you're not sharing pictures of your new 77/44 yet?

Also, when you get the 77/44, please, for Pete's sake, DON'T LISTEN to anybody who tells you to reload your .44 Magnum to "rifle" specs because you're now using it in a rifle. A max charge of W296, H110, 2400 or H4227 is a max load, doesn't matter what kind of firearm it's fired out of.

(For the record, the 77/44 is a rifle I've always wanted as well. After having had a Ruger 96/44, a Marlin 1894PG, a Ruger Super Blackhawk cut to 6" and a 6" S&W 629. In addition to having access to a NEF Pardner .44 Magnum, a Ruger Redhawk shortened to 6" and a standard 7.5" Super Blackhawk. Maybe I should get a .44 again...)

 

[SARuger]

That's probably what I will end up doing. But I really like that Gunsight Scout though, love my GSS in 308, it's a swiss army knife. I use the XS rail with Leupold quick release mounts. I can change that rifle from a 500yrd field rifle to a brush gun in seconds, tip off the scope, swap out my ammo from long range hunting rounds to heavy reduced load brush bullets

 

[jmorris]

A max charge of W296, H110, 2400 or H4227 is a max load, doesn't matter what kind of firearm it's fired out of.

I have a number of books that have different max loads for different firearms like these 44 magloads that are the same other than rifle, pistol, contender only loadings.



Couple things worth noting in them though.

The 265gn @1.610” load with H110, specifically.

Pistol max of 23.4 gives 1400
Rifle max of 22.2 gives 1700
TC max of 22.3 gives 1550

So the rifle and TC only loads are actually lower max loads than the pistol loads, maybe they were using a revolver with an exceptionally large cylinder gap, bleeding off pressure that otherwise showed signs in the other two?

Who knows, they also have different charges with 296 & H110 despite them being the same powder in different cans.

Then you have other data like the 2400 loads for the same bullet.

Pistol max of 18.7 gives 1300
Rifle max of 20.4 gives 1600
TC max of 20.4 gives 1450

Opposite results, that don’t support the above theory. Lots of factors go into testing environmental, consistency in components and unless using precise instruments results can be subjective too.

These are reasons I don’t blindly follow book loads and reference a number of sources before I pick a starting load.

 

[mcb]

I not sure how much you can say about any of that data without pressure data to go with the barrel length and muzzle velocity data. "T/C data" is notorious for being over SAAMI MAP, which is fine if you're shooting it in a known gun strong enough to take the over pressure but not good for a general discussion again since we have no way of knowing what the pressure is without that data being included.

In theory a cartridge that produces a given pressure in a pistol should produce the same peak pressure in a rifle*. Remember with most propellants in pistol cartridges you have reached peak pressure before the bullet has move more than a small fraction of an inch beyond the case mouth.

For me loading a pistol cartridge for a rifle is not about different peak pressure it's about using a slower propellant that can actually take advantage of the longer barrel. I worked up a load earlier this summer for my pistol/carbine 44 Mag Combo and it makes a fine example. My goal was a 240gr XTP bullet a bit over 1300 fps from my handgun. I tried three powders and got two of them to my desired velocity. The relevant thing to this thread is then I also chrono'ed them in my 16 carbine.

First load was 800-x in my 6.5-inch M29 it made 1372 fps, in the 16-inch carbine it bumped up to 1600 fps
Second load was H110 in my 6.5-inch M29 it made 1351 fps in the 16-inch carbine it bumped up to 1708 fps.

H110 as you can see takes advantage of the extra barrel length a lot better than 800-x does. Loading pistol caliber cartridges for rifles is IMHO more about picking relatively slower powders at similar working pressures than trying to hot rod the cartridge for the rifle.

 

[wanderinwalker]

I fear this is a rabbit hole we can go down and completely derail the OPs thread! But I agree with the above notes as well as stick by my original "the max pressure and charges aren't different just because it's now a rifle." How's that for conflicted!

mcb, I bet your charge weights of H110 are heavier than 800-X (not being familiar with 800-X and not wanting to open Hodgdon to look it up). You simply have more powder to turn into gas volume. As I understand it, all powders and cartridges reach peak pressure before the bullet has moved very far. Slower burning powders simply require more powder weight to hit a peak pressure, and thus give you more gas volume, which then expands as the bullet travels down the barrel. Faster powders generate less gas volume, giving less gas to expand, and therefore don't get as much advantage from longer barrels and greater expansion ratios.

(The other ballistic rule I generally follow: There's no replacement for displacement! If you want to go fast or throw heavy bullets, it's best to start with something big enough to do it.)

 

[mcb]

wanderinwalker yeah the 800-x load is nearly half the weight of the H110 weight.

 

[Hookeye]

I'd let the gun pick my cartridge.
Lever, bolt, semi, pump?
.44 mag to me is not a 200 yard deal.
100 and in seems more like it.
With that my choice is a Ruger semi auto sporter. Trigger sucks, accuracy isn't MOA.
Don't care, inside of 100 it works and is cool.

LGS has a .450 BM Ruger American.
I dislike the bolt for looks and feel.
And the stock.
Like the Gunsite version more but it's $$$$

Thinking get a used cheap Savage and rebarrel it.

If I was willing to drop top coin for a straight walled thumper deer rig, I'd try for a .460 Smith in a Ruger #1.
Wish the .44 mag had a little longer bbl, looks too short.
If it was like a reg 1A and 22" you could always ream it to .445 Supermag
.

 

[Hookeye]

Somebody mentioned CVA.
Buddy has one in .35 rem, is 3 for 3 with it.
If ya like a break open........pretty darn decent for the $.

Single shots for me in rifle must be falling block.

Ran a Contender, carbine.....and went bang every time in the woods (for me).
Must be closed sharply or risk a "click".
Have heard of CVA's not closed sharply, deer comes in and hammer won't cock.
If one is prone to have Murphy visit in the deer woods...........

single shot for me (and them) would be non break open.

So the .450 BM CVA is not on my list. Been tempted.........just can't.

 

[Garandimal]

Use the 77/357 w/ both factory 140 gr. Barnes copper XPB and 158 gr.AE-JSP, and thermonuclear 180 gr. HDY XTP handloads.

​

The 77/44 should be fine.




GR

 

[someguy2800]

Use the 77/357 w/ both factory 140 gr. Barnes copper XPB and 158 gr.HDY XTP, and thermonuclear 180 gr. XTP handloads.

View attachment 815276
​

The 77/44 should be fine.




GR

Does a 77/357 have enough room in the magazine and chamber to load a 180 xtp in the 2nd crimp groove?

 

[Garandimal]

Does a 77/357 have enough room in the magazine and chamber to load a 180 xtp in the 2nd crimp groove?

Never tried it, as I also have a RUGER BH 6.5" in 357 Mag.




GR

 

[jmorris]

I not sure how much you can say about any of that data without pressure data to go with the barrel length and muzzle velocity data. "T/C data" is notorious for being over SAAMI MAP, which is fine if you're shooting it in a known gun strong enough to take the over pressure but not good for a general discussion

If the 1st TC load I referenced would be dangerous in a revolver then the revolver load would be even more so as it’s 1.1gn higher than the TC load.

The point being is “Max” with or without pressure numbers is a moving target based on a number of variables that include firearm, projectile, powder and environmental conditions among others.

 

[<*(((><]

That's probably what I will end up doing. But I really like that Gunsight Scout though, love my GSS in 308, it's a swiss army knife. I use the XS rail with Leupold quick release mounts. I can change that rifle from a 500yrd field rifle to a brush gun in seconds, tip off the scope, swap out my ammo from long range hunting rounds to heavy reduced load brush bullets

I didn’t realize that Ruger did the GSR in .450 BM, I have the Stainless .308 GSR and like you have an XS Rail on it with QD rings, it’s very versatile, and I really enjoy it.

 

[SARuger]

I didn’t realize that Ruger did the GSR in .450 BM, I have the Stainless .308 GSR and like you have an XS Rail on it with QD rings, it’s very versatile, and I really enjoy it.

I swear it's best all around bolt gun made right now. I love mine. It's hard not to order the 450bm model

 

[<*(((><]

I swear it's best all around bolt gun made right now. I love mine. It's hard not to order the 450bm model

DO IT! I might have to down the road. It’s just harder to justify than a 308, but they are really nice rifles, once you factor potentially a new stock for the Ruger American you are pretty much there with the GSR price.

 

[CraigC]

I not sure how much you can say about any of that data without pressure data to go with the barrel length and muzzle velocity data. "T/C data" is notorious for being over SAAMI MAP, which is fine if you're shooting it in a known gun strong enough to take the over pressure but not good for a general discussion again since we have no way of knowing what the pressure is without that data being included.

In theory a cartridge that produces a given pressure in a pistol should produce the same peak pressure in a rifle*. Remember with most propellants in pistol cartridges you have reached peak pressure before the bullet has move more than a small fraction of an inch beyond the case mouth.

For me loading a pistol cartridge for a rifle is not about different peak pressure it's about using a slower propellant that can actually take advantage of the longer barrel. I worked up a load earlier this summer for my pistol/carbine 44 Mag Combo and it makes a fine example. My goal was a 240gr XTP bullet a bit over 1300 fps from my handgun. I tried three powders and got two of them to my desired velocity. The relevant thing to this thread is then I also chrono'ed them in my 16 carbine.

First load was 800-x in my 6.5-inch M29 it made 1372 fps, in the 16-inch carbine it bumped up to 1600 fps
Second load was H110 in my 6.5-inch M29 it made 1351 fps in the 16-inch carbine it bumped up to 1708 fps.

H110 as you can see takes advantage of the extra barrel length a lot better than 800-x does. Loading pistol caliber cartridges for rifles is IMHO more about picking relatively slower powders at similar working pressures than trying to hot rod the cartridge for the rifle.

Except that handgun cartridges are going to peak with the same powders, whether the barrel is 6" or 24".

The Contender cannot withstand a lot of pressure (backthrust). The only cartridge I know of that's load heavy in the T/C is the .45Colt. Where it usually deviates is COL.

 

[someguy2800]

The Contender cannot withstand a lot of pressure (backthrust). The only cartridge I know of that's load heavy in the T/C is the .45Colt. Where it usually deviates is COL.

The only other that comes to mind is 357 maximum. A few sources have revolver load data at 35k psi, and also T/C data. Contender can load it to 223 pressures but the books usually don’t go that high. Theoretically you could do the same to 357 mag. There are probably quite a few others that could be loaded up quite a bit in a TC, like a 218 bee, 32/20, ect... but don’t have +p load data in the books.