How hard, or easy, would it be to fill in the threaded nipple hole in a cylinder and redrill it for a different nipple? I have an antique revolver that has one, maybe two bad nipple holes and the Ruger Old Army nipples are the perfect fit for this gun in terms of height, width, etc.
Machinist question
- Thread starter pohill
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Riss
Member
I think that it would be easiest to tap larger holes into the messed up ones. If you needed to put in a smaller threaded nipple you would first have to fill the hole. Finish off the plug and then tap the plug for a new thread to screw the nipple into. If they are the same thread you would have nothing to thread into. It would not hold. If the new nipple has a lager thread then just tap the hole and screw it in.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
I would investigate using Heli-Coil thread inserts.
http://www.ersco-mi.com/helicoil2.html#top2
Plugging would require TIG welding the hole shut and re-drill & tap the holes.
Not something to take lightly on an old and probably valuable BP revolver.
I have no idea what thread the Ruger nipples are however.
There is also Dixie Gun Works.
They have enough different size nipples to outfit a strip club!
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/advanc...age=2&osCsid=18b382141aa2ac71f77ef88b491c0b74
rc
http://www.ersco-mi.com/helicoil2.html#top2
Plugging would require TIG welding the hole shut and re-drill & tap the holes.
Not something to take lightly on an old and probably valuable BP revolver.
I have no idea what thread the Ruger nipples are however.
There is also Dixie Gun Works.
They have enough different size nipples to outfit a strip club!
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/advanc...age=2&osCsid=18b382141aa2ac71f77ef88b491c0b74
rc
It's not something I'd try myself. I don't know a gunsmith but I might try a machinist locally. I'd like to have an idea of what's involved before talking to one, though. I think the threaded holes are too damaged to use as they are.
The Heli-Coil thread inserts look like a possibiity but again, not something I'd try.
The Heli-Coil thread inserts look like a possibiity but again, not something I'd try.
Das Jaeger
member
Not positive
but I am pretty sure they "TRESO " makes oversized threaded nipples for thsi problem already .
Jaeger
but I am pretty sure they "TRESO " makes oversized threaded nipples for thsi problem already .
Jaeger
scrat
Member
there are a bunch of different methods to use.
1 i would want to see the cylinder before determining what method to use.
2. helicoil can be good but you have to understand this involves sometimes drilling tapping then inserting a helicoil.
3. I would prefer building up the material. No matter how old the steel is with a good thorough check you can evaluate weather or not it will hold up to welding it shut. Most of the time it can be. Regardless of how old it is. Only thing that would stop you is the quality of the steel or too much rust.
so after carefully checking the cylinder and cleaning it up i would. Weld up the hole. Spending time to do it right. Then check my work. Clean it up. Then set it up on my press and align it properly then drill out the new hole to the correct size allowing for the tap. then i would carefully thread the new hole. Then i would carefully inspect the rest of the cylinder and chase out all of the nipples to make sure all the threads are cleaned up. After that i would strip down the cylinder maybe even bead blast it. Then re blue it to match the gun again. if you do the job properly you will not even be able to tell which is the doctored cylinder to the others.
Any how that is what i would do.
1 i would want to see the cylinder before determining what method to use.
2. helicoil can be good but you have to understand this involves sometimes drilling tapping then inserting a helicoil.
3. I would prefer building up the material. No matter how old the steel is with a good thorough check you can evaluate weather or not it will hold up to welding it shut. Most of the time it can be. Regardless of how old it is. Only thing that would stop you is the quality of the steel or too much rust.
so after carefully checking the cylinder and cleaning it up i would. Weld up the hole. Spending time to do it right. Then check my work. Clean it up. Then set it up on my press and align it properly then drill out the new hole to the correct size allowing for the tap. then i would carefully thread the new hole. Then i would carefully inspect the rest of the cylinder and chase out all of the nipples to make sure all the threads are cleaned up. After that i would strip down the cylinder maybe even bead blast it. Then re blue it to match the gun again. if you do the job properly you will not even be able to tell which is the doctored cylinder to the others.
Any how that is what i would do.
Das Jaeger
member
Ampco
makes oversize for sure , need a tap is all , your done .
Possibles Shop , or Track of the Wolf , Possibles is in stock .
Later, Jaeger
makes oversize for sure , need a tap is all , your done .
Possibles Shop , or Track of the Wolf , Possibles is in stock .
Later, Jaeger
bonza
Member
I replaced the nipples on an old revolver I have, but as I was going to a slightly larger diameter shank I drilled out the existing holes & retapped for the new thread size. One thing to consider is that the nipples are usually at a slight angle to the axis of the chambers (ie not in a straight line), so you'll have to allow for that angle. Once I was done I found the nipple were just a tad too short for reliable ignition! I fixed that by making some shims out of some little washers that I increased the hole of slightly to fit over the nipple's shank & also reduced the O.D. to match the diameter of the nipple.....unless you look hard it's hard to tell they are there, plus they are transferable when I need to replace the nipples. Mountain State Muzzleloading sells a good variety of nipples in various thread sizes, you may want to check them out.
Another option, though it would be difficult on a revolver, that I have used on a couple of rifles, is to drill out the original nipple hole to a larger diameter & tap for an commonly available machine bolt thread size. I then cut off a section of the bolt & drill & tap that for the thread size of the nipples I'll be using, cut to length & screw into the rifle & loctite in (only use loctite on the external threads of the insert!), this has worked well for me.
Another option, though it would be difficult on a revolver, that I have used on a couple of rifles, is to drill out the original nipple hole to a larger diameter & tap for an commonly available machine bolt thread size. I then cut off a section of the bolt & drill & tap that for the thread size of the nipples I'll be using, cut to length & screw into the rifle & loctite in (only use loctite on the external threads of the insert!), this has worked well for me.
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scrat
Member
not necessarily so. even with the correct tap. if the threads are very bad you may find the tap to screw in hard as it cuts the threads. Then it may be quickly observant that it feels loose as cutting the bad material may weaken the threads. Making them thin, making the nipples toooooo easy to screw in. a little wiggle well it may work but i would not recomend it. a little wiggle can be a bad thing.
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scrat
Member
depends on the ability of the gunsmith. there are some very good gunsmith out there we had a thread about this about a year ago. a machinist i can tell you will be better as they will measure the angle and degree of the other nipples to determine the correct angle to redrill. It wont be a backyard cut and drill. Done properly they would take the time and inspect then measure. take full measurements. Then do the welding and inspection, clean up then drill and tap. Heck you take it to a really good machinist and you may be walking out with another cylinder. they are really not that hard to make. You would need a good lathe and mill. Take the measurements then make it. After that correctly harden the steel. Done
I actually thought about having a cylinder made. This is the Savage & North revolver, which would be a great repro. Most of the parts are pretty simple in design.
Here it is next to my Pietta 1860. The Ruger nipples are the right height to fit under the topstrap.
Here it is next to my Pietta 1860. The Ruger nipples are the right height to fit under the topstrap.
Zeke/PA
Member
I would question welding on the cylinder, here's why.
Any heat applied may alter the heat treat of the cylinder.
The applied heat could very well create a super hard spot exactly where you wish to drill and tap the new hole(s), to say nothing about annealing some necessarily hardened sections of the cylinder.
Any heat applied may alter the heat treat of the cylinder.
The applied heat could very well create a super hard spot exactly where you wish to drill and tap the new hole(s), to say nothing about annealing some necessarily hardened sections of the cylinder.
scrat
Member
Wow thats nice. For sure it would be a very good idea to get a cylinder made. Its really not that hard.
arcticap
Member
Why make a lot of extra work just to fit a Ruger nipple?
Just retap the chamber hole for the right size nipple for the job even if you need to have a custom nipple made to fit right.
Even buying several custom replacement nipples would be better than having unnecessary work done. And doing unnecessary work is risky too since it doesn't always get performed right.
Talk to Blomquist if you're not sure which nipple to use or if you want to investigate having a custom nipple made that will work to fix your problem.
http://blomquistpercussionworks.com/
Just retap the chamber hole for the right size nipple for the job even if you need to have a custom nipple made to fit right.
Even buying several custom replacement nipples would be better than having unnecessary work done. And doing unnecessary work is risky too since it doesn't always get performed right.
Talk to Blomquist if you're not sure which nipple to use or if you want to investigate having a custom nipple made that will work to fix your problem.
http://blomquistpercussionworks.com/
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Four of the nipples are fine. I doubt they're original nipples but they fit tightly and they're in good shape. The threads in the other two nipple holes are damaged, and I just don't trust them. Not that I shoot the gun that much but it would be good to have it in working order. Maybe I'll check into having a cylinder made, as far as price, etc.
As a side note, I was in an antique shop in Maine a few weeks ago and in a case were two sets of original grips. One was for a Colt, the other was for a Savage & North. The seller didn't know what they came off, but it's pretty easy to ID them once you've handled them. What are the odds of finding these...
I got them for $25.00.
As a side note, I was in an antique shop in Maine a few weeks ago and in a case were two sets of original grips. One was for a Colt, the other was for a Savage & North. The seller didn't know what they came off, but it's pretty easy to ID them once you've handled them. What are the odds of finding these...
I got them for $25.00.
arcticap
Member
How about if I trade you 2 replacement nipples for 2 grips? Then you'd need a gun to go with them. Somewhere out there is a Savage & North without grips.
The day I bought the grips in Maine, I stopped at Cabelas (Scarborough, ME) and they just took in a Savage & North in the Gun Library. The salesman told me that he tried to talk the guy out of selling it because it had been in his family since it was new, but the guy had no interest in guns. It had his great grandfathers initals on it. Ouch.
I think they were asking just under $1000.
The day I bought the grips in Maine, I stopped at Cabelas (Scarborough, ME) and they just took in a Savage & North in the Gun Library. The salesman told me that he tried to talk the guy out of selling it because it had been in his family since it was new, but the guy had no interest in guns. It had his great grandfathers initals on it. Ouch.
I think they were asking just under $1000.
Das Jaeger
member
Arcticap
No doubt , I concur , why turn a simple thing into something so darn complicated .
I would rather spend $6.95 on a custom nipple than possibly ruin my cylinder trying to weld it , then tap it ,then harden it , phooeeeeee on that ! .
And no , cylinders are not easy to make for anyone other than a machinist or gunsmith , and they still aint EASY . Drinking a Beer is easy , milling and boring a cylinder is far from easy . Cutting cylinder notches , blah blah blah , then timing it , come on man , "easy" , give me a break .
Das Jaeger
.
No doubt , I concur , why turn a simple thing into something so darn complicated .
I would rather spend $6.95 on a custom nipple than possibly ruin my cylinder trying to weld it , then tap it ,then harden it , phooeeeeee on that ! .
And no , cylinders are not easy to make for anyone other than a machinist or gunsmith , and they still aint EASY . Drinking a Beer is easy , milling and boring a cylinder is far from easy . Cutting cylinder notches , blah blah blah , then timing it , come on man , "easy" , give me a break .
Das Jaeger
.
Scrat is absolutely right here. You CANNOT just drill the hole out larger and retap it. The new thread minor diameters will not be correct and you will have only partial thread engagement. Very dangerous for a pressurized environment.
Look up the thread specs, both minor and major diameters, for male and female threads for both sizes. Nobody makes nipples with large enough threads to make it work.
The easiest, and in the long run least expensive, thing to do is to buy a new cylinder.
Look up the thread specs, both minor and major diameters, for male and female threads for both sizes. Nobody makes nipples with large enough threads to make it work.
The easiest, and in the long run least expensive, thing to do is to buy a new cylinder.
Jim Watson
Member
If you had a Dixie print catalog, ol' Turner Kirkland would tell you how to deal with damaged nipple threads. It sounds frightfully crude and will probably offend the Internet Experts.
Caveat: I haven't tried it myself.
Caveat: I haven't tried it myself.
Das Jaeger
member
Custom Nipple
Did you guys not catch that you can use a custom nipple ?
Good grief , Jaeger
Did you guys not catch that you can use a custom nipple ?
Good grief , Jaeger
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