Mad Scientist: load developments for BE pistol shooting

[CKweigand]

I have several k’s of reloads under my belt. Whoop de doo right?... But now I’ve got the itch...

Before, reloading was a means for me to shoot more and make some noise. But now I find myself wanting to get every bit of what I can out of my reloads. Only in an effort to transition into BE competition...

I know I’m limited to my own shooting skills as well as the mechanical accuracies of said pistol...but eliminating the human factor I want to know what it is that I can do, if possible, to roll extremely accurate and repeatable loads.

I’ve seen some load write ups from @vaalpens which comes to mind right now that really impressed me. I’ve seen some of @Walkalong load development sheets he made from Microsoft excel that have laid some groundwork for me to follow.

So I guess what I need help with is. Are there any advanced reloading practices that some of you guys use when developing such loads? Any specialty tools come to mind in the loading process?

I have notes listing all my load data, dates of loading and testing, temperatures and weather info, powder lot info, bullet weight info, chrono result info, function and reliability info, and etc...

I’m looking into purchasing a ransom rest and building my own mounting plate for said rest.

I’ll be developing loads for 45 ACP, 9x19, 38/357 and 44spl and mag.

Is there anything you have found in past practices that helped contribute to accurate loads?...

 

[wrench459]

A ransom rest will remove the human element.
Accurate loads can be anywhere only testing will pull that out.
The 9mm luger should not be able to spit the projectile out as fast as it does
on paper.

 

[Hokie_PhD]

I’ve only been reloading a short time. (Less than two years) And I don’t compete yet. But it sounds like you’re off to a good start.

I suspect you already know the answer. The reality is that making the ammo you want isn’t that hard. The goal is to make each round as close to the others as you can. To eliminate variables and to then find the load that works best in your gun(s). So while it’s not hard, it does require a lot of work, and most importantly attention to detail.

After exact loads then lots of testing.

 

[Dudedog]

Not a BE shooter,
so others will probably be more help than I am.
I load some 38/357, more .45 mostly 9mm. (some rifle as well, haven't loaded any shotgun in years)

After getting good results with bullet, powder charge etc, I have found playing with the OAL both a little shorter or a little longer can help.

If your after that last little bit you want to keep things as consistent as possible between rounds.


I have also heard talking nice to your gun and giving it a hug and kiss every now and then helps as well, but I'm single so what do I know.

 

[fxvr5]

A ransom rest will remove the human element.
Accurate loads can be anywhere only testing will pull that out.
The 9mm luger should not be able to spit the projectile out as fast as it does
on paper.

Please explain this.

 

[fxvr5]

The most important component of accurate ammunition is the bullet. Use bullets that are recognized for this feature.

Sorting your brass by headstamp is probably a good idea because different headstamps can have different internal capacities and this can affect velocity and pressure.

Here is a good source of information for accurate 45 Auto and 9mm ammo: http://www.bullseyeforum.net/f13-ammunition-discussion

Some well recognized loads are at these links:
http://www.bullseyeforum.net/t1209-pet-loads-of-top-shooters-loads-from-the-past
http://www.bullseyeforum.net/t1796-9mm-hardball-loads

 

[CKweigand]

Thanks for the input guys, I’m already sorting by headstamps. I’m sorting and depriming, then everything goes through the wet tumbler. Dried and then put in labeled ziplock bags and thrown in the MTM ACR8-72 ammo crates. I’ve found that you can fit about 3500 empty brass casings of 45 ACP in the ammo crates easily...
When loading up R-P headstamps for example of 45 I’ll make minor adjustments to my dies for consistent loads. I have observed R-P seems to have thinner case wall thickness than other brands. Not that it matters to me right now, as R-P cases seem to be very reliable for me and consistent within themselves.

Consistency is the keyword here. I’m looking into purchasing more of differing bullet profiles from RMR thanks to dudedogs recommendation. And then going from there...once I get everything pooled together and write down my observations I’ll definately share with everyone. Thanks again!

CK

 

[vaalpens]

Thanks for the honorable mention in your original post. I am not a BE shooter, but I try and get as much accuracy out of my equipment without being consumed by it. I think you already understand that consistency is important, and trying to remove or minimize some of the variables. I would think bds will probably comment at some point of time since he has done some extensive write-ups on how to get the best accuracy out of range brass. Any pursuit for accuracy is only going to be as good as how accurate you can shoot, thus evaluating the load instead of evaluating your shooting skills.

 

[fxvr5]

Bullets used by Bullseye shooters for the 45 Auto include:

Jacketed: Nosler or Zero 185 JHP. These two bullets are nearly identical.
Lead: Zero 185 and 200 SWC, and various cast 185 and 200 SWC.

9mm Bullets:

Hornady 115 HAP or XTP. Some have had good luck with Zero JHP, usually the conical nosed bullets.
RMR's 124 FMJ FP has proven accurate in my 9mm and 38 Super loads.

 

[AJB2]

Load testing can be done shooting off a sandbag until you get a Ransom Rest .For lead bullets sorting cases is a waste of time , with jacketed bullets it does make a difference ( Bullseye loads ) . If you have to sort keep longest 45acp cases for the 50yd line . Yes R-P case have the thinnest case walls . I mainly shoot lead for following reasons : It's cheaper & almost as accurate as jacketed , you don't have to push lead as fast as jacketed , it's easier on barrels . Cast bullets can be accurate if segregated by weight before you size or lube . This allows you to catch the ones that have voids , take the lightest & toss them back in the pot . If you don't cast yourself & have to buy go with swaged lead . For 45 the Zero 200 SWC or 185 LHPSWC , same with the Magnus . Owners of both companies are Master class Bullseye shooters themselves . Avoid the Precision Delta as they're often undersize , lead your barrel & are less accurate @ 50yds . I know PD's are the darling of the PPC crowd , but the last batch of their 185 LHPSWC they sold me were undersize , lead & don't group well @ 50yds . I load them in 25yd timed & rapid loads . If you buy new brass buy direct from Starline . Quality & better prices period . Some of the tried & true loads are : 3.8 - 4.2 Bullseye , 3.6 - 4.0 VVN - 310 , 4.6 - 5.0 W 231 , 4.0 - 4.4 WST , 4.0 - 4.3 700X , 4.0 - 4.2 AA#2 or Solo 1000 for 185 - 200 lead 45acp loads . I do not like Clays or Titegroup for lead . For 45acp 185 JHP stick with the Nosler , Zero or Horn XTP . proven loads for these are : 4.1 - 4.5 VVN-310 , 4.6 - 4.8 WST , 4.5 - 4.8 Bullseye , 4.6 - 5.0 Nitro 100 , 4.3 - 4.5 Clays , 4.4 - 4.6 Titegroup , 4.5 - 4.7 700X . Oal for lead start @ 1.250 , for 185 JHP start @ 1.210 , .469 crimp on both .

 

[AJB2]

For 45acp 230 FMJ hardball loads your velocity envelope is 800 - 850fps , 1.260 - 1.265 Oal , .469 crimp , new or 1x fired cases . Bullets : the best is the Sierra # 8815 ( save these for the 50yd line ) the Horn 230 FMJ & the Magtech 230 FMJ are both good & will get you points if you do your part . Tested loads : 4.8 WST , 5.4 - 5.7 W231 , 4.8 - 5.0 Titegroup , 4.8 Solo 1000 , 5.0 - 5.2 VVN-320 , 4.6 - 5.0 Bullseye , 4.7 700X , 5.2 - 5.5 AA#2 or 4.2 - 4.5 Nitro 100 . For cheap practice 230 RN lead with lower above loads .

 

[AJB2]

9mm Bullseye accuracy is a royal PITA . You got to push them 1100 - 1150fps , new or 1x fired cases , Oal 1.120 - 1.145 ( critical ) , crimp .376 - .378 . Just about everyone builds their 9mm match guns with the 1 in 32twist KKM barrels regardless of the platform . Again the Sierra 115 FMJ or Horn 115 XTP are king . Some have had luck with the Zero 115 FMJ , & Nosler 115 . For faster twist barrels the 124 or 147 seem to work better . Success has been found with VVN-330 , VVN-340 , WSF & Power Pistol .

 

[AJB2]

38 special accuracy starts with the 148 HBWC . Swaged gives best accuracy around 700fps , cast flat based or double ended around 800fps . S&W used a 1 in 18.75 twist , Colts a 1 in 16 & custom built 1911's / revolvers from 1 in 10 to 1 in 16 . Wadcutter has a long bearing surface & needs a faster twist to fully stabilize . This is why many targets shot with either S&W revolvers or Model 52's @ 50yds show signs of " tipping " , particullarly the HBWC @ 700fps , cast pushed @ 800 from their revolvers slower twist usually don't . The Model 52's because of their tight .355 - .356 bore usually don't shoot as well with cast as they will with swaged . Gil Hebard established this with his testing back in the '60's . Seat flush with case mouth , use a Lyman " M " or cowboy expander . Very light taper .369 ( best accuracy ) or roll crimp . Time tested loads are : 2.7 - 3.0 Bullseye , 2.6 - 2.9 Red Dot , 2.3 - 2.5 700X , 3.1 - 3.2 W231 , 2.7 - 2.9 AA#2 , 2.6 - 2.8 WST , 2.7 - 3.0 SR7625 , 2.3 - 2.4 RS Comp , 2.6 PB , 3.5 - 3.8 SR4756 , 2.8 - 3.0 VVN 320 or 3.6 VVN 340 .

 

[AJB2]

For a wealth of information join the Bullseye L forum & Target Talk forum . For research The Encyclopedia of Bullseye Pistol & the Bullseye L archives Google Groups . You'll find advice on loads , equipment & Shooting fundamentals from many High Master shooters . For training find & download the USAMU & USMC workbooks / Training guides . If you religously follow these exercises outlined in both you will be shooting Master level scores .

 

[CKweigand]

AJB2,
Thank you for the crash course! Looks like I got a lot of homework and research to do and you have given me a great stepping off point!

 

[AJB2]

You're quite welcome . Hope to see you on the line one day .

 

[243winxb]

Precision pistol or the old name for it, Bullseye Pistol can be fired with 1 good accurate 45 acp pistol. Its allowed in center fire also. Work on that one first. I used 200 gr Speer swagged bullets at 50 yds. Home cast at 25 for timed and rapid. Bullseye powder.

Accuracy- Starline brass all of the same lot. The longer the brass, the better accuracy will be. For slow fire, lswc bullets, accuracy is better with the bullets shoulder contacting the rifling. This removes end play in the chamber. Not all 45's will allow this. Not for timed and rapid.

The 45 cuts a bigger hole on target then a 38. The 45 may cut the next higher scoring ring, that the 38 would miss.

Many classifications/skill levels available under the NRA course of fire.

Do read the rule book first.

 

[RugerOldArmy]

FWIW, for BE shooting, I'd also ensure all loads are below 1087 fps, as things become less predictable/consistent crossing the sound barrier. Some of the cartridges listed by the OP can easily exceed that.

Exactly how much of a factor this is, I can't really say. Yet in my experience with .22 LR, the subsonics have most always been more accurate.

 

[CKweigand]

FWIW, for BE shooting, I'd also ensure all loads are below 1087 fps, as things become less predictable/consistent crossing the sound barrier. Some of the cartridges listed by the OP can easily exceed that.

Exactly how much of a factor this is, I can't really say. Yet in my experience with .22 LR, the subsonics have most always been more accurate.

It’s funny you mentioning this because I was just reading an article about the disturbances of flight from loads that break the barrier sound before hitting the target, very interesting.

 

[243winxb]

Federal match 185 gr jacketed swc 45 acp ammo has a muzzle velocity of 780 Feet Per Second.

Low recoil is an advantage in timed & rapid fire.