1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Understood...but if an officer is injured badly enough...the other tools may not be an option. Again...These things only rarely follow the book. Your points are valid, but they assume too much.
Magazine disconnect pro/con.
- Thread starter cowssurf
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Understood...but if an officer is injured badly enough...the other tools may not be an option. Again...These things only rarely follow the book. Your points are valid, but they assume too much.
Respectfully (said without sarcasm), This thread contained people talking about how many times a mag disconnect save an LEO's life. I stated that fact smacked to me of urban legend. I was rebuffed with "huh-uh, ain't neither". Hence my request for some links to hard and verifiable facts.
In the absence of such facts, the claim (for me at least) has the status somewhere along the lines of someone claiming, "I knew a guy who knew a guy whose sister-in-law heard of someone who told her that there was this cop whose life was saved by a magazine disconnect on his service weapon".
If the ability to disable one's pistol can save someone's life, by that logic just think how many lives would be saved by not carrying a pistol at all, thereby rendering the argument totally moot (Okay, I slipped back into smarta** mode briefly. Sorry.
)But while we're on the subject, I'm no newbie to shooting semi-auto pistols. Been doing it for more years than a fair percentage (likely) of the members here have been alive. Shot my fair share of IPSC too. Having said that, I realize that does NOT make me some kind of expert on the subject. But....
In my own experience, I find it way harder and more complicated to press the magazine release than to pull the trigger. I mean, on some pistols I have to slightly to not-so-slightly reposition my grip to press the damn thing.
Therein lies my confusion on the concept of "mag disconnects are a great thing to have on a gun because all you have to do is drop the mag and the bad guy can't use your weapon against you".
If I have the time and opportunity to do what it takes to drop the magazine, I honestly have to believe I'd have considerably more time and opportunity to pull the trigger. It's just easier, quicker and more mechanically natural to do. This whole other concept is simply impossible for me to wrap my mind around.
Am I wrong here?
Mad Magyar
Member
Meef, here is one for starters....I'll look in my stack of gun rags where Mas goes into more specific examples. IIRC, one excellent article dealt with a debate PRO & CON where he takes the PRO position...
Notice the 1st paragraph along the lines of the CON. To that point, hopefully a B.U.G. will come into play...
Notice the 1st paragraph along the lines of the CON. To that point, hopefully a B.U.G. will come into play...
fastbolt
Member
No, it's not like you're wrong, but more like you've probably not been involved in the sorts of situations in which 'pulling the trigger' was not a practical or even possible alternative.
Fending off an attacker with one hand, while the attacker is trying to wrest the cop's pistol from the holster, and the officer is able to depress the magazine catch before the pistol is removed from the holster ...
Trying to regain control of the unholstered pistol while it's being dominated by an attacker, but not pointed at the attacker, and being inexorably turned toward the officer ...
The attacker's physical domination/struggle has caused the pistol to be slightly out-of-battery, or 'disconnected', and the officer is unable to fire the pistol, but also fears he/she is about to lose control of the pistol ... either from being over-powered or else while being repeatedly struck, kicked, etc., etc. ...
The officer suddenly finds him/herself in a situation where the pistol is NOT going to be fired, but must take an immediate step to deny unauthorized usage of the pistol in case a physical confrontation suddenly presents an enticing access to the holstered pistol by an unauthorized person ... I watched a new cop in FTO trying to detach a rather determined 5150 little old lady from repeatedly attempting to grasp his holstered pistol while he and another cop were trying to contain/restrain her without causing her injury. Popping the magazine and pocketing it denied her easy access to a functioning weapon on the cop's belt while they tried to restrain her without causing causing her injury.
In the same vein, removing the magazine from the holstered pistol while moving a prisoner makes it that much harder for a prisoner to grasp an immediately functioning weapon if things go wrong in an unexpected manner.
Now, we could "what if?" such things endlessly, and someone who dislikes the magazine disconnect concept isn't likely to become convinced it has any practical benefit, or isn't somehow 'dangerous' to the user in some hypothetical situation, but the plain fact is that it has been demonstrated to be practical, useful and even life-saving in a surprising number of LE situations.
Could it also be of similar use in a non-LE situation? Well, as isp2605 suggested for consideration, why not? Maybe. Possibly.
I know someone who enjoys shooting competitively and who also works for one of the major firearms manufacturers. He doesn't use a pistol equipped with a magazine safety for competition, but the pistol he selected for his wife's nighttime access does have one. He's not concerned about it failing if she ever needs the pistol to fire, but feels it offers her an optional course of action in rendering the weapon temporarily inoperable should she desire. He and she are certainly in the best position to understand their needs, and how to best provide for them.
It's an option ...
... Unless you live in a state which requires new pistols to be equipped with it, of course. Then the 'choice' has been made for you, and you deal with the situation as appropriate.
On the subject of the public having access to LE-involved situations where a magazine safety/disconnect saved an officer's life, as isp2605 mentioned it's just more than a little unlikely that such information is easily accessible, it at all, to the general public. Some agencies may sometimes track such things internally, and may even share such information with another agency or the firearm's manufacturer, but it simply isn't something commonly put into some file for the purpose of tabulating and 'sharing it' with the public.
Gun magazine authors have shared their first-hand or second-hand knowledge of such things in the past, and probably because they understand how seldom such information works its way out of the LE field into general public knowledge, and that it may be interesting to their readers.
Just because the information isn't considered relevant or necessary for release to the public, that doesn't mean it falls within the category of urban legend, though.
If you don't like the feature, and you're not required to have it in your pistol, what's the need to be all hot & bothered about it or lose any sleep over it's presence in pistols belonging or being used by someone else? I don't make any money of them, and couldn't care less what other folks thought about them outside of my immediate interest and control.
Are the same folks who have such volatile reactions to the presence of a magazine safety/disconnect on a pistol also horrified by the presence of a 'kill-switch' on modern motorcycles?
What if the button is hit while zooming down the freeway? 
What if it malfunctions and kills the motor when the rider desperately needs it? 
On the other hand, the way things seem to be moving toward 'safety considerations' when it comes to firearms, I won't be at all surprised if increasingly more states consider it a mandatory feature on new pistols imported into their states as time passes.
I like the way that S&W has made the magazine safety & ILS optional features in their MP pistol line, except for those states which have already enacted legislation requiring such things, of course. I wish they did the same thing when it comes to the ILS in their revolvers ...
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leadcounsel
member
I was simply saying that LEO has to detain people and that often leads to struggle. I don't.
Mad Magyar
Member
fastbolt, your last post hit it "purty good"....
Assume too much? HAHAHAHAHA!!! I spent 35 yrs as a LEO, have had extensive defensive tactics and weapons retention training in my career, and BTDT many times, including several times where the BGs attempted to actually disarm. Assume too much? I didn't assume anything. I've been there. Have you or are you just assuming what might happen?
It only smacks of ruban legend because you are not in a position in your life where you see the actual reports or have been in the actual situations and therefore, because of your pre-existing beliefs you refuse to believe what others are telling you. If you don't want to believe the stories then fine, don't believe them. But then don't poo-poo them by saying "I don't like such and such so therefore I dont' believe the stories." Fact is I know 4 of our guys personally who are alive today because of mag disconnects. Those are not 4 guys who "who knew a guy whose sister-in-law heard of someone". These are 4 guys who I worked with and with 3 of the cases I was there on-scene immediately following. The 4th case is well documented report which even Mas has written about. Every year several of our guys will have been in situations where people will have attempted to disarm them. It's really quite common. But you'll never know it and probably won't even read about it in the papers because it's not covered by the media. But the incidents occur quite frequently in LE.
Yes and here's why. You assume that in your struggle to retain your weapon that you're always going to have a clean full grasp of the weapon. Fastbolt explains it very well. Until you've BTDT or had very good DT training then you really don't know what it's like to fight for your weapon.
What you are assuming is that the mag disconnect is the only tool in your tool box. It's not, it's just another tool. For a LEO it's like a Level 3 holster, 12 defensive tactics training session a year (which my agency required, not including weapons training), wearing your firearm in a certain location and the holster retained on the belt securely, why everything is carried on your belt the same place every time, why you carry an ASP. All of those assist with weapons retention. Each buys you time. It's not about shooting the guy, it's about staying alive and that's what all the training and "tools" gives you. It's why I have always preached, and many on here get their panties in a wad, when I claim if you only practice shooting a gun (and very few get actual training) then you really aren't practicing to stay alive but only relying on one tool.
LEOs don't get in the struggle for their weapon trying to detain people. It's from the initial contact with the person and when they are jumped and often times the person tries to remove the weapon from the LEO's holster or during the draw. The point is that having looked at and investigated many LEO and non-LEO shootings that you, as a non-LEO, if in a weapon displaying situation are going to be a lot closer to your adversary than the typical LEO encounter because you're more likely to be in contact with someone you already know. What we found looking at the shootings was it's quite common during non-LEO shootings that the 2 people involved were actually in close contact if not actual contact distance already. So while you may think you'll be some distance from your adversary our studies show that you'll actually be in closer contact that LEOs.
Sorry, but having investigated and reviewed far too many shootings in my career, both LEO and non-LEO shootings, the facts show the exact opposite of what you think.
As I wrote earlier, make your decision based on facts, not what you "think" might happen and having never BTDT. What you think a situation might be like, if you've never actually been involved in them, is not at all what it's really like when you have to get down and get dirty. Make an informed decision. Saying "not likely to get into 'wrestling' with a suspect." and " detain people and that often leads to struggle. I don't." shows that people haven't looked at the facts or actually BTDT but only basing their beliefs on imagination.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Nope. Just considering what can happen. My brother-in-law is a 22-year veteran of a sizeable police department. When he was younger, he had the unpleasant experience of having his arm broken during a hand-to-hand fight with a perp....after he'd shattered his baton on him. The guy took his gun after he had him down.
Jim was lucky in that all the guy wanted was his gun and to get away. Had he wanted to kill him, there wouldn't have been much that he could have done about it. The WSPD was carrying revolvers at the time. He remarked later that he probably should have gone for his gun when the guy first started to resist aggressively...but he figured that he could take him without it. Big mistake. He ass/u/me-d too much.
So, I'll stand by the statement that I made earlier. Your position is valid...but it assumes that the cop won't get beaten down and overpowered. It does happen.
DougDubya
Member
Not enough granularity in this poll.
Should have been an answer for "it's an extra feature, and isn't a deal breaker for me because I'm not a complete mental cripple with an inability to handle a proprietary firearm's off-buttons and switches."
Should have been an answer for "it's an extra feature, and isn't a deal breaker for me because I'm not a complete mental cripple with an inability to handle a proprietary firearm's off-buttons and switches."
leadcounsel
member
I'll continue to weigh in:
When I was in college I did a ride along with the Philly PD. On one of my 2 ride-alongs the LEO spotted a wanted criminal and hopped out of the car on foot pursuit. Long story short LEO caught up but got into a wrestling match and they fought over the LEOs gun, which remained holstered. LEO got a broken hand out of it before his backup arrived and detained suspect.
Citizen:
1. Not required to pursue - in fact discouraged;
2. Not required to detain - in fact discouraged;
3. Mostly carry concealed. Benefit is that the BG doesn't know you have a gun until it's drawn. There are few situations where BG even has a chance to go for my piece until it's drawn and fired in about 2 seconds. Unless BG #2 is flanking me or BG #1 is REALLY fast it's highly unlikely he gets to me before I can squeeze of a shot or more.
a. Maybe he covers the distance;
b. Maybe the gun slips and falls in which case the mag disconnect worthless;
c. Maybe the gun jams....
Point is, the mag disconnect may be valuable when you are carrying openly and especially when LEO is frequently detaining BGs and wrestling with people.
Wrestling with people is not my job as a civilian. I think that if I'm alert enough to predict when someone wants to wrestle and I consider that enough to defend my life, because if we wresle he may have a weapon or may get my gun away from me and use it.
When I was in college I did a ride along with the Philly PD. On one of my 2 ride-alongs the LEO spotted a wanted criminal and hopped out of the car on foot pursuit. Long story short LEO caught up but got into a wrestling match and they fought over the LEOs gun, which remained holstered. LEO got a broken hand out of it before his backup arrived and detained suspect.
Citizen:
1. Not required to pursue - in fact discouraged;
2. Not required to detain - in fact discouraged;
3. Mostly carry concealed. Benefit is that the BG doesn't know you have a gun until it's drawn. There are few situations where BG even has a chance to go for my piece until it's drawn and fired in about 2 seconds. Unless BG #2 is flanking me or BG #1 is REALLY fast it's highly unlikely he gets to me before I can squeeze of a shot or more.
a. Maybe he covers the distance;
b. Maybe the gun slips and falls in which case the mag disconnect worthless;
c. Maybe the gun jams....
Point is, the mag disconnect may be valuable when you are carrying openly and especially when LEO is frequently detaining BGs and wrestling with people.
Wrestling with people is not my job as a civilian. I think that if I'm alert enough to predict when someone wants to wrestle and I consider that enough to defend my life, because if we wresle he may have a weapon or may get my gun away from me and use it.
fastbolt
Member
I guess I simply missed the intent of this thread somewhere along the way ...
I thought folks were just expressing a personal opinion (if they had one) and explaining why they may or may not, personally, want to have a pistol equipped with a magazine safety/disconnect feature.
I missed where it was intended to be a blanket condemnation of the feature in general, even when someone else was using a pistol so equipped.
I kind of look at it from an admittedly simple perspective ...
If it's a feature required to be present in a particular issued or authorized LE service weapon, then it's something over which the user seemingly has little choice, but should be cognizant of when handling and employing the weapon.
If the LE user has a choice in selecting a service weapon with/without this feature, then hopefully the individual will avail him/herself of the opportunity to seek guidance from the agency's firearms training folks, and perhaps some other relevant, credible sources within the LE field, and make a suitable choice for his/her needs.
If it's a pistol being lawfully carried as a defensive weapon by an individual who is free to choose whatever he/she feels best suits his/her needs, then why should anyone else care about it?
Admittedly, there may be an additional consideration surface, which is the potential for this type of 'safety feature' to become mandated in new pistols as time passes and local/state governments may start to promulgate such things.
I have to say that I see more problems demonstrated when it comes to cops being unable to properly, quickly, efficiently, effectively and safely draw and present their weapons from their chosen and/or mandated holsters ... (and reholster them) ... and I see even less apparent thought, attention and skill in this critical regard demonstrated by folks in some CCW classes ...
This is a tempest in a teapot ... and I'm drinking coffee.
I thought folks were just expressing a personal opinion (if they had one) and explaining why they may or may not, personally, want to have a pistol equipped with a magazine safety/disconnect feature.
I missed where it was intended to be a blanket condemnation of the feature in general, even when someone else was using a pistol so equipped.
I kind of look at it from an admittedly simple perspective ...
If it's a feature required to be present in a particular issued or authorized LE service weapon, then it's something over which the user seemingly has little choice, but should be cognizant of when handling and employing the weapon.
If the LE user has a choice in selecting a service weapon with/without this feature, then hopefully the individual will avail him/herself of the opportunity to seek guidance from the agency's firearms training folks, and perhaps some other relevant, credible sources within the LE field, and make a suitable choice for his/her needs.
If it's a pistol being lawfully carried as a defensive weapon by an individual who is free to choose whatever he/she feels best suits his/her needs, then why should anyone else care about it?
Admittedly, there may be an additional consideration surface, which is the potential for this type of 'safety feature' to become mandated in new pistols as time passes and local/state governments may start to promulgate such things.
I have to say that I see more problems demonstrated when it comes to cops being unable to properly, quickly, efficiently, effectively and safely draw and present their weapons from their chosen and/or mandated holsters ... (and reholster them) ... and I see even less apparent thought, attention and skill in this critical regard demonstrated by folks in some CCW classes ...
This is a tempest in a teapot ... and I'm drinking coffee.
Mad Magyar:
I appreciate the only reference of substance (other than some statements by members whom I have no reason to doubt) listed thus far.
fastbolt:
Your positions are well reasoned and cogently presented. Admittedly there's a lot of "what-if" in there, but this topic lends itself to that. Regarding your remark:
isp2605:
35 years in law enforcement. You have done something I wouldn't/couldn't do and you have my respect. So while I freely admit that I haven't struggled with anyone to retain control of my firearm (and hope that I never do), I still think one of the last things I would be focusing on in such an event is wondering, "Is it time to render my gun inoperable yet"? I tend to go along the lines of the Op's very first post in this thread.
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Okay, I'm not disputing anybody's personal anecdotes. I still really would like to see some hard facts on this subject. And since just about everything under the sun is available in swarms on the World Wide Web, it just strikes me as odd the dearth of information on this precise topic.
For the record, I do enjoy a good debate. Comes from having exclusively Irish ancestors I imagine. While I do tend to place considerable store in my opinions and way of seeing the facts, I'm not immune to being persuaded to the Dark Side now and then (the Dark Side, being naturally - any opinion that differs from mine at any given time...)
And while I haven't BTDT (as keeps being referenced) in every imaginable situation or scenario - one thing I do know is LSMFT.
I'll gracefully bow out of this one. I've said my piece, now I'll keep my peace.
I appreciate the only reference of substance (other than some statements by members whom I have no reason to doubt) listed thus far.
fastbolt:
Your positions are well reasoned and cogently presented. Admittedly there's a lot of "what-if" in there, but this topic lends itself to that. Regarding your remark:
Please be at ease that I'm not in the least all hot, bothered or sleepless regarding anyone's preference for or against the mag disconnect. I'm merely participating in a forum discussion on same. Fact is, I own an FN Hi-Power that has the damn thing, and one of these day's I'm going to have it removed.
isp2605:
35 years in law enforcement. You have done something I wouldn't/couldn't do and you have my respect. So while I freely admit that I haven't struggled with anyone to retain control of my firearm (and hope that I never do), I still think one of the last things I would be focusing on in such an event is wondering, "Is it time to render my gun inoperable yet"? I tend to go along the lines of the Op's very first post in this thread.
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Okay, I'm not disputing anybody's personal anecdotes. I still really would like to see some hard facts on this subject. And since just about everything under the sun is available in swarms on the World Wide Web, it just strikes me as odd the dearth of information on this precise topic.
For the record, I do enjoy a good debate. Comes from having exclusively Irish ancestors I imagine. While I do tend to place considerable store in my opinions and way of seeing the facts, I'm not immune to being persuaded to the Dark Side now and then (the Dark Side, being naturally - any opinion that differs from mine at any given time...
)And while I haven't BTDT (as keeps being referenced) in every imaginable situation or scenario - one thing I do know is LSMFT.
I'll gracefully bow out of this one. I've said my piece, now I'll keep my peace.
Marshall
Member
I'm willing to bet the Hi Power with a Mag Disconnect is more reliable that most any "out of the box" 1911 made today, regardless. At the very minimum, the odds are with you on the Hi Power. So the "one more thing" to go wrong has to be put into proper perspective with the overall reliability of the gun itself.
I see it as more stuff to break/malfunction... much like power seats in a car, but not quite as awful to repair.
While it deviates from the original intent of the thread, I'm somewhat amazed that in 90+ posts none of the apocryphal reports have been presented.
While it deviates from the original intent of the thread, I'm somewhat amazed that in 90+ posts none of the apocryphal reports have been presented.
Your brother's story has me perplexed then on why you think a mag disconnect isn't worth it. Think it thru. Had your brother had an auto and been able to disable it by dropping the mag before the BG got his gun, would that not have given him a bit more of an edge?
Your brother's story also shows what so many on here don't seem to understand. Sometimes no matter what you do you won't always win. Even the BG has a good day.
Is it? Or do you really know what goes on in your head during a struggle? What you think you'll be thinking you'll never know until you've BTDT. I can assure you that when you're in that pickle that ALL your training goes thru your head.
While you think "everything under the sun is available" on the web I can assure you that we, and every other LEA that I ever conducted investigations for, never published all our investigative reports on the web or anywhere else. Your first error of assumption is thinking "everything under the sun" is on the web. Sorry, but it isn't. I, and every other LEA investigations unit, have rooms full of files that never saw the web and contained tons of facts that were never made public. What makes you think a LEA has any interest in publishing everything in their files on the web? Sorry again, but that's not real life. That stuff isn't for everyone's reading entertainment purposes.
mljdeckard
Member
I will never carry a gun with one, HOWEVER,
Ayoob has cited a few cases where they have saved lives. There have been instances in a struggle, where an officer managed to drop the magazine, let the attacker have the gun, and get to a backup piece. I THINK, the effort would be better spent making sure you don't get that close to the BG in the first. As a citizen, I'm not getting close enough to frisk or cuff anyone.
Ayoob has cited a few cases where they have saved lives. There have been instances in a struggle, where an officer managed to drop the magazine, let the attacker have the gun, and get to a backup piece. I THINK, the effort would be better spent making sure you don't get that close to the BG in the first. As a citizen, I'm not getting close enough to frisk or cuff anyone.
I apologize for all of LE that none of us post all of our investigations on the web just so you can have something to read and entertain yourself with. I understand that since you can't read it on the web that you are completely lacking in knowledge and information. I'm sorry we in LE didn't realize that our lack of posting our investigations on the web has created some who are so ill-informed. :banghead:
DougDubya
Member
mljdeckard - you have a magical forcefield that keeps criminals from getting within grappling range of you?
Two questions - where did you get it, and if you have THAT, why carry a gun?
Two questions - where did you get it, and if you have THAT, why carry a gun?
mljdeckard
Member
I'm certainly not saying it's impossible. But I have the option. Police don't. A regular part of their job is to stand beside and physically interact with criminals. I can avoid anyone I want to.
DougDubya
Member
Rats. I was hoping for a magical force field...
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