Supertac45
Member
No way. They are a failure waiting to happen.
Magazine disconnect pro/con.
- Thread starter cowssurf
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1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Valid point. The more gadgets it's got...the more "Murphy" it gets.
Just one more thing to malfunction.
Counterpoints?
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Yes...but there's no need to overstate the case. How "safe" do we need the gun to be? How "safe" can we make a gun before it's nearly useless?
Question:
Do we rely on any mechanical safety?
Double-Action revolvers included?
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
And autopistols can be made safe by removing the magazine and insuring that the chamber is clear...and locking the slide open/out of battery shows that it's clear...just like swinging the cylinder out on a revolver.
No mag disconnect necessary if one simply observes proper procedure for clearing the weapon. For those who don't...There isn't a safety designed that will be enough to prevent a tragedy. An idiot will always find a way to shoot himself or other people.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
I gotta go. A final word from me on the question of mechanical safeties.
4 rules. Observe them religiously and you won't have need of a safety.
1. The gun is loaded. It's always loaded until you PROVE that it isn't...and after you prove it...handle it as though it were loaded. Safety on...Safety off...Loaded or clear. It makes not one whit of difference.
2. Pulling the trigger is what fires the gun. If you want the gun to fire, pull the trigger. If you don't...don't. It's just that simple.
3. Don't point the gun at anything that you don't want to make a hole in.
4. Make sure that you want to make a hole in whatever you point the gun at and pull the trigger..and make sure that whatever is behind what you shoot is okay if IT gets a hole in it, too...just in case you miss or shoot through your primary target. There just ain't any "Do-Overs."
I hear guys refer to their pistol as "My New Toy" or "My Little Friend." Very dangerous mindset to fall into, and I take great exception to it. It's not a toy and it is NOT your friend. It's a rattlesnake that wakes up the instant that you put your hand on it. Handle with all due caution and respect.
4 rules. Observe them religiously and you won't have need of a safety.
1. The gun is loaded. It's always loaded until you PROVE that it isn't...and after you prove it...handle it as though it were loaded. Safety on...Safety off...Loaded or clear. It makes not one whit of difference.
2. Pulling the trigger is what fires the gun. If you want the gun to fire, pull the trigger. If you don't...don't. It's just that simple.
3. Don't point the gun at anything that you don't want to make a hole in.
4. Make sure that you want to make a hole in whatever you point the gun at and pull the trigger..and make sure that whatever is behind what you shoot is okay if IT gets a hole in it, too...just in case you miss or shoot through your primary target. There just ain't any "Do-Overs."
I hear guys refer to their pistol as "My New Toy" or "My Little Friend." Very dangerous mindset to fall into, and I take great exception to it. It's not a toy and it is NOT your friend. It's a rattlesnake that wakes up the instant that you put your hand on it. Handle with all due caution and respect.
GigaBuist
Member
I've only got a mag disconnect on one pistol, the Walther P22, and it annoys the snot out of me.
Worse, it makes me wonder if I'm ever going to have an ND because of it.
After cleaning my weapons I like to do a quick function check. Rack slide, dry-fire, rack, dry-fire, rack, de-cock to half-cock, etc. It varies from pistol to pistol, but I like to dry-fire a couple of times to make sure things are OK.
For me I figure I'm FAR more likely to accidentally insert a loaded mag into the pistol just to "dry-fire" it than I am to ever need to drop a mag in a gun fight. Yes, it's preventable through diligence and safe handling practices, but it worries the heck out of me that I might make that mistake some day.
I've taken to holding my P22 upside down to dry-fire it with the magazine out rather than insert an unloaded one.
Worse, it makes me wonder if I'm ever going to have an ND because of it.
After cleaning my weapons I like to do a quick function check. Rack slide, dry-fire, rack, dry-fire, rack, de-cock to half-cock, etc. It varies from pistol to pistol, but I like to dry-fire a couple of times to make sure things are OK.
For me I figure I'm FAR more likely to accidentally insert a loaded mag into the pistol just to "dry-fire" it than I am to ever need to drop a mag in a gun fight. Yes, it's preventable through diligence and safe handling practices, but it worries the heck out of me that I might make that mistake some day.
I've taken to holding my P22 upside down to dry-fire it with the magazine out rather than insert an unloaded one.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Yep...but the main issue is that we've moved away from our roots. Guns aren't a normal part of our lives...generally speaking, of course. Kids don't grow up with guns, and neither did their fathers. They don't get the instruction and the experience in proper gun-handling any more...hence the need for all these automatic safety gizmos that we're seeing.
I have. I've seen a few Hi-Powers' disconnects malfunction and one that wouldn't allow the gun to fire. A friend had it happen on a Smith 10-40. Any mechanical device can malfunction or break...but that's not really the whole point.
The magazine disconnect was implemented on the P35 because it was designed primarily for a European military force. As mentioned above...European nations at the time weren't as well-rooted in guns as a normal part of life as America was...so the gun had to be designed to be reasonably safe to operate by the average conscript. Or...The lowest common denominator, if you prefer...normally with only basic familiarization and training with the pistol. There simply wasn't time to beat into their heads that the chamber had to be cleared after removing the magazine before the pistol could be made safe. You'd be surprised at the number of people who don't understand that removing the magazine doesn't clear the pistol. It's frightening.
The 1911 pistol...also a military design...has 3 redundant safeties.
The Walther P38 incorporated a passive firing pin safety as well as a hammer decocker/hammer block safety.
Lowest common denominator. The magazine disconnect is a good idea for people who can't remember proper procedure for clearing an autopistol and/or can't keep their fingers off the triggers. It also has its utility among uniformed street cops, whose siderms are in public view. As for me...I don't need one and I don't want one. I want the option of telling the gun to fire instead of the gun dictating to me whether or not I can fire it.
sniper5
Member
Didn't see the I don't care box. If I like the ergonomics, handling, and accuracy of the pistol I really don't care whether it has a mag safety or not. Also don't care about magazine capacity. If it fits, it fits. If it don't, all the bells and whistles in the world, whether they are present or absent, won't make it feel right.
Just my preferences.
Just my preferences.
Mad Magyar
Member
The OP wanted opinions of the "gun grab-"trigger pull" concerning a mag disconnect....I repeat: you planted the "seed" about safeties to reinforce your point about your own personal beliefs...Very puzzled by all that....
No doubt, LEO's need it IMHO, but in the civilian world when not firing in competition: no problem either way....
Personally, would like to hear your opinion about how much affect does the disconnect have on trigger action?
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
No. Again...I didn't plant any "seeds" for any such purpose. I stated an opinion, and went ahead and gave MY reasons because...as sure as shootin'...somebody was gonna demand to know why. Thought I'd get that outta the way up front.
And you can include:
"If the operator is unsafe, all the bells and whistles won't make it so."
It has an adverse effect on the Hi-Power. That much I do know. As for the others, I ain't got a clue because I don't mess with'em much, and haven't had a back-to-back comparison on a given model with and without.
I also know that...with several Hi-Powers...removing it has caused hammer followdown issues unless a smith who is well-versed in things P35 does the work and corrects the problem. Most professional pistolsmiths will refuse to alter or remove any factory-installed safety device, and will even refuse to touch one that has been altered unless the repair order includes restoring it to full function.
I have a nice Belgian Hi-Power. I'd love to carry it, but won't... specifically because of the disconnect. I know that the chances of it malfunctioning are slim...but there's always that chance...and the more gadgets it's got, the greater the liklihood that something will go wrong. Murphy follows me everywhere.
And, again...THIS IS MY 2% OF A DEVALUED BUCK. YMMV
So much so that I've pulled it out of every Hi-Power I've owned, even the one I was issued in Iraq (which I didn't own, but if I might have to fight with it, it's going to work exactly as I want it).
I hate the blasted things. As 'Tuner put it, lowest common denominator.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Which is my whole point, and thank you Andy.
It's like the seat belt law. The point isn't whether to wear one or not. It's the right to choose without assistance.
If I may have to rely on the gun to get me home alive, I want it to fire when I decide to fire it...not when the gun decides to let me fire it.
Tuner, you just don't get it.
It's for your own good, can't you understand that.
And if not, well then think of it this way. It's for the children. Who can argue with that?
Give it up. Go along, get along.
I don't know what's with the people on this board who think they know what's best for themselves.
::mutter:: Freaking anarchists or something.....
It's for your own good, can't you understand that.
And if not, well then think of it this way. It's for the children. Who can argue with that?
Give it up. Go along, get along.
I don't know what's with the people on this board who think they know what's best for themselves.
::mutter:: Freaking anarchists or something.....
The Bushmaster
Member
Meef's got it...What about the rest of you? L O L 
fastbolt
Member
Magazine disconnects/safeties have been documented as having saved the lives of cops. This isn't open to interpretation.
On the other hand, inappropriate/improper weapon handling can create problems if the magazine is dropped or not properly seated. Improperly fitted/manufactured holsters can cause problems if the magazine catch is depressed and the magazine released.
Both of the above described 'conditions' can also create potential functioning problems even in pistols without magazine disconnect safeties, though, since you're now limited to a single-shot weapon even in the best-case scenario. Ever watch lots of folks stand there puzzled/dumbstruck when they finally realize why their weapon is no longer responding to the trigger ... and then start to address the problem?
Now, I'm not saying that you could necessarily grow trees during that time lag/reaction ... but it's dismaying and amazing how long it actually takes for many folks to realize what condition(s) are involved, how they must be resolved and then act (often with an unsurprising amount fumbling) to take that action.
Unlike the Belgian GP, the traditional metal-framed S&W pistol magazine disconnect/safety, and the new M&P pistol magazine disconnect/safety, do not have an affect on the weight of the trigger pull.
The M&P design is very simple. Elegantly so.
Sig Sauer used to offer a magazine disconnect/safety on their LE contract pistols ... (and may still) ... but didn't push it. The way it was described to me, it was a feature reluctantly offered if it was 'deal-breaker' for a large LE contract where the feature was desired. Not familiar with that design as it apparently isn't found very often and wasn't included in the armorer class.
During one of my later SW99/P99 armorer classes we were told that S&W had finally worked out a deal with Walther to design a 99 frame which included a magazine safety option. We were told it was requested by S&W because of LE inquiries into having the feature on the SW99. Walther engineers finally redesigned the frame to accommodate a magazine disconnect/safety, albeit somewhat reluctantly.
It was eventually determined that the redesigned frame which included this optional feature would only be produced by Walther upon a confirmed LE order, though. Never heard of any being ordered. It wasn't that much later that the M&P pistol was released and S&W unsurprisingly started de-emphasizing the licensed SW99/990L to their LE customers in favor of their own M&P. I always wondered what the Walther engineers had come up with in the 99 design to incorporate a magazine safety.
I've used S&W pistols which incorporate their traditional magazine safety for a significant part of my career (approx 18 years) and I have no problem continuing to use them.
I have no problem using my 1911's, Glocks, Rugers and SW99's which do not have magazine safety/disconnects, either.
On the other hand, inappropriate/improper weapon handling can create problems if the magazine is dropped or not properly seated. Improperly fitted/manufactured holsters can cause problems if the magazine catch is depressed and the magazine released.
Both of the above described 'conditions' can also create potential functioning problems even in pistols without magazine disconnect safeties, though, since you're now limited to a single-shot weapon even in the best-case scenario. Ever watch lots of folks stand there puzzled/dumbstruck when they finally realize why their weapon is no longer responding to the trigger ... and then start to address the problem?
Now, I'm not saying that you could necessarily grow trees during that time lag/reaction ... but it's dismaying and amazing how long it actually takes for many folks to realize what condition(s) are involved, how they must be resolved and then act (often with an unsurprising amount fumbling) to take that action.
Unlike the Belgian GP, the traditional metal-framed S&W pistol magazine disconnect/safety, and the new M&P pistol magazine disconnect/safety, do not have an affect on the weight of the trigger pull.
The M&P design is very simple. Elegantly so.
Sig Sauer used to offer a magazine disconnect/safety on their LE contract pistols ... (and may still) ... but didn't push it. The way it was described to me, it was a feature reluctantly offered if it was 'deal-breaker' for a large LE contract where the feature was desired. Not familiar with that design as it apparently isn't found very often and wasn't included in the armorer class.
During one of my later SW99/P99 armorer classes we were told that S&W had finally worked out a deal with Walther to design a 99 frame which included a magazine safety option. We were told it was requested by S&W because of LE inquiries into having the feature on the SW99. Walther engineers finally redesigned the frame to accommodate a magazine disconnect/safety, albeit somewhat reluctantly.
It was eventually determined that the redesigned frame which included this optional feature would only be produced by Walther upon a confirmed LE order, though. Never heard of any being ordered. It wasn't that much later that the M&P pistol was released and S&W unsurprisingly started de-emphasizing the licensed SW99/990L to their LE customers in favor of their own M&P. I always wondered what the Walther engineers had come up with in the 99 design to incorporate a magazine safety.
I've used S&W pistols which incorporate their traditional magazine safety for a significant part of my career (approx 18 years) and I have no problem continuing to use them.
I have no problem using my 1911's, Glocks, Rugers and SW99's which do not have magazine safety/disconnects, either.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Guess I've just always been a maverick...
Now, That's whut'm talkin' 'bout!
Choice! It's the 'Murican way! Git some!
leadcounsel
member
1. LEO has different rules than civilians for detaining suspects and shooting. I can see the usefulness for LEO but not for civilians. I am not a LEO and won't own a gun with a mag disconnect. I think the advantage of being able to shoot without a mag or with a defective magazine outweights the disconnect feature.
2. Why in the world would anyone in their right mind move TO CA if they have a choice?
2. Why in the world would anyone in their right mind move TO CA if they have a choice?
Alright. I know I'm a smarta** much (most?) of the time. One of my many character flaws I suppose.
But I'm going to put my generally obnoxious behavior on hold to the best of my ability for awhile and ask a serious question.
Numerous people have posted here making the above claim. I searched the Internet and have yet to come up with all of this indisputable evidence, or any anecdotes of this fact that "isn't open to interpretation".
Actually, I haven't even located one such instance. I guess they're out there, given all the people alluding to them. But.....
Help me out here please. I surrender. Could somebody here please provide some links to back up this claim? I honestly would like to take a look a several - or at least more than one - such instances.
Mad Magyar
Member
I think you have a valid concern....All of us have heard or read many things that we sometimes wonder if they are true. I can steer you in the right direction: Massad Ayoob. He might, if requested, jump into this thread...I'm a little tired to look up his writings right now (after all, his writings are prolific), but he has documented many such cases in LE.
Tuner, FastBolt, et al thanks for the insight on the trigger which aroused my interest....
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
On the issue of saving the lives of cops under physical attack with the attempt to relieve them of their sidearms...I'm sure that the mag disconnect has been of invaluable use on occasion. I don't know the exact figures, and I really don't care.
If a mag disconnect has stopped one hophead from using a cop's gun against him...it was well worth it.
Taking the postion of "Devil's Advocate" as I am wont to do at times...it could also be an officer's undoing after he "pops the clip" to disable the gun.
Suppose the would-be cop killer tries the gun on the downed officer, and ...upon discovering that it won't fire...turns to other means to finish what he started. There are many ways to kill a man besides with a gun.
The cop's baton is a very efficient weapon. Bare hands were used to kill long before guns were a part of the equation. Men have been overpowered and kicked or beaten to death about as often as they've been shot. If the cop's pistol is now disabled, and he is unable to retrieve the magazine or procure another one from his belt...he may be in for a bad time.
So...we don't need to argue that point further, except to say that it can work both ways. These things almost never go down in textbook fashion.
If a mag disconnect has stopped one hophead from using a cop's gun against him...it was well worth it.
Taking the postion of "Devil's Advocate" as I am wont to do at times...it could also be an officer's undoing after he "pops the clip" to disable the gun.
Suppose the would-be cop killer tries the gun on the downed officer, and ...upon discovering that it won't fire...turns to other means to finish what he started. There are many ways to kill a man besides with a gun.
The cop's baton is a very efficient weapon. Bare hands were used to kill long before guns were a part of the equation. Men have been overpowered and kicked or beaten to death about as often as they've been shot. If the cop's pistol is now disabled, and he is unable to retrieve the magazine or procure another one from his belt...he may be in for a bad time.
So...we don't need to argue that point further, except to say that it can work both ways. These things almost never go down in textbook fashion.
You're not going to read the complete police investigation for a shooting or disarming incident. All the public sees at most is a news release or bits and pieces of the story. Most likely they'll never know the incident ever occured. You won't get the entire report. What you're looking for isn't out there in the public venue.
I'm not sure what you mean by "different rules". When a LEO gets in a situation where he's attempted to be disarmed it's because he's operating within close proximity to the BG. Having done quite a few shooting investigations involving non-LEOs and reviewing a whole bunch more we found the non-LEO is really in no different situation than a non-LEO. Most non-LEO shootings involve very close if not actual contact range. Think about it tho. Most non-LEO shootings involve people who at least know each other. Most contact with other people involve proximities of about arms reach conversation distance. So what you find is the typical incidents involving non-LEOs occur actually at closer distances than LEO shootings. And many of the non-LEO shootings involved some grasping for the shooters gun.
And what that does is buy the LEO time to go to other means. That's taught extensively in LEO training. It's called our "tool box" as when one tool doesn't work then you reach into your tool box for another tool. "Tool box" is not an actual "thing" that many non-LEOs think of that are on the LEO's belt but "tools" that we are trained to use in defensive tactics which maybe strikes, kicks, blows, pressure points, ground fighting, etc.
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