Mailing a replica black powder handgun

[Fisherman_48768]

Can anyone point me to a postal regulation that states I can or cannot ship a pre 1898 percussion handgun via USPS?

 

[Deanimator]

Unless I'm mistaken, a cap and ball firearm isn't a firearm by BATFE regulations AT ALL. They AREN'T "curios" or "relics". You can buy them through the mail in most places. The lumber yard up the street from my high school in CHICAGO sold them.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Yes, you CAN mail it.
http://pe.usps.gov/text/dmm300/601.htm

Paragraphs 11.1.1.g and 11.2

g. Antique firearm means any firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898, or any replica thereof, if such replica:

1. Is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition.

2. Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and that is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

11.2 Antique Firearms
Antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces may be accepted for mailing without regard to 11.1.3 through 11.1.6.

DMM601 does not define curios, Websters definition is:

A curious or unusual object of art or piece of bric-a-brac.

 

[TimRB]

"I hope you're right."

He's right. I had a cap and ball revolver sent right to my door from Cabela's, and I'm in California. They are literally not firearms under the law.

Tim

 

[NavyLCDR]

If you want the 18 USC 922 exception, the definition and exception are in 921:

(3) The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or
(D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm

(16) The term “antique firearm” means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

So, the 18 USC 922 requirements concerning FFL's and transfers and such do not apply to your antique, which is not a firearm.

Yes, Johnny, the Navy does have more ideas

 

[deadin]

Just don't mail a conversion cylinder with it.

 

[NavyLCDR]

This message brought to you by the U.S Army.
The U.S.Navy, the real pros ,may have more ideas.
Just kidding!

I was in the Army (National Guard) from 1984 to 1988. Went to Ft. Dix, NJ for basic training in 1984.

I saw the light and enlisted in the Navy in 1988, then went to the dark side and got commissioned in 2001.

In June of 2008 I went back to combat training with the Army prior to deploying to Iraq at, you guessed it, Ft. Dix, NJ, in exactly the same barracks, dining facility and other buildings as basic training in 1984.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I was 76Y in the Army and unit armorer as well.

 

[Fisherman_48768]

Just tried mailing a replica to a curio and relic dealer, Postal Service will not accept any handgun regardless of what their own regulations say. This is done under the application of "concealable handgun provision". Needless to say the PM and I had a few words about splitting hairs in the reading of the regs. Specifically 11.2 as it applies to curio and museum pieces.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Go up the chain, over the postmasters head. He has a supervisor. Your "gun" is not even considered a firearm at all, let alone a concealable handgun. Here's what I would do.... does your post office have the automated mailing center, the do it yourself machine? Use that. Put it on the scale, punch in the dimensions of the box, the zip code it is going to and have the machine print the postage. If the box is too big to fit in the package bin in the lobby hand it to the clerk with the postage attached and just say your box is too big to go in the bin.

Or take it to mail and more or any other storefront mailing place. If anyone asks what is in the box, the reply is an antique replica.

What did you disclose to the clerk when you were mailing it? You don't have to tell them it's a pistol, a firearm, or anything like that. Just say antique replica.

Your other option is UPS. UPS ground, packaged as an antique replica.

I think part of the problem of the misunderstanding here is that you are treating your piece as some sort of firearm if you are using words like "gun", "pistol", "C & R dealer", etc. It is not a firearm or a gun according to Federal law, it is an antique replica, a curio, an object of curios nature and it is being sent to a "recipient", not a licensed FFL, because they don't need a license for you to mail this to them or for them to receive it.

 

[Fisherman_48768]

I asked for a complaint form if they had one to submit to the IG. PM said they didn't have them but I was to call a number and they would refer me to the right person. I said I had already called that number and was referred back to YOU. PM smiled and said yup, to which I replied so now we got us a circle jerk going right?? PM just smiled again and said yup. I'm just about fed up with the gubberment and their silly illegal chit. What part of shall not infringe don't these idiots understand. I ready the PM the ATF regulation on black powder firearms shipments and all the PM could say is who is the ATF!!

They don't control the postal service.

 

[deadin]

Unfortunately it sounds like you have a jerk for a Post Master. Try a different PO.

 

[barnetmill]

I know historically the post office would not accept from a non-FFL any sort of handgun whether it was pellet gun or modern firearm and I assume this definition was also applied to muzzle loading pistols. The original definition was apparently not based on a firearm as defined by the federal government. I do not know if that has changed.

 

[NavyLCDR]

What part of shall not infringe don't these idiots understand.

SEE?!?!! That's what I am talking about... :banghead::banghead:

The 2nd amendment doesn't apply to your piece, because, legally, you DO NOT HAVE A FIREARM!

Put it in a flat rate priority mail package, mail it to a named individual at the business you are sending it to, pay the flat rate postage fee, when asked if the package contains explosives, hazardous materials, firearms, etc, the answer is NO! and just be done with it!

or the automatic postage machine....
or mailboxes etc....
or a usps outlet in a drug store or wherever....
ANYWHERE but the dang Post Office counter trying to mail anything OTHER THAN an antique replica to a generic recipient.

 

[barnetmill]

The 2nd amendment doesn't apply to your piece, because, legally, you DO NOT HAVE A FIREARM!

Put it in a flat rate priority mail package, mail it to a named individual at the business you are sending it to, pay the flat rate postage fee, when asked if the package contains explosives, hazardous materials, firearms, etc, the answer is NO! and just be done with it!

or the automatic postage machine....
or mailboxes etc....
or a usps outlet in a drug store or wherever....
ANYWHERE but the dang Post Office counter trying to mail anything OTHER THAN an antique replica to a generic recipient.

Friend do not follow the above forum advice without finding out from a reliable source. Some parts of the postal code could carry heavy penalties. Ignorance of the law may only come into play during sentencing. Find out for sure before you act. The second amendment in court can not be counted upon for a succesful legal defense. Been tried before. Look at what the ATF does daily.

 

[NavyLCDR]

barnetmill,

You obviously have not read the Domestic Mail Manual (DMM 601) nor the Federal law, Title 18 Chapter 44, Section 921. It could not be more plain, in black and white language, that he does not have, by legal definition, a firearm. Well, ok, to quote 921 an antique firearm which is exempt from all firearm regulatory controls associated with interstate commerce, transportation and shipping.

 

[nalioth]

Friend do not follow the above forum advice without finding out from a reliable source. Some parts of the postal code could carry heavy penalties. Ignorance of the law may only come into play during sentencing. Find out for sure before you act. The second amendment in court can not be counted upon for a succesful legal defense. Been tried before. Look at what the ATF does daily.

Right.

. . and Cabela's, Dixie Gun Works, Bass Pro Shop, and countless other mail order dealers selling replica antique cap and ball blackpowder pistols though the US Mail get away with it how?

 

[barnetmill]

If cabella does send BP muzzle loading handguns through the mail it may be ok. The key here is handgun. I did check their site and did not see any restriction about shipping.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Right.

. . and Cabela's, Dixie Gun Works, Bass Pro Shop, and countless other mail order dealers selling replica antique cap and ball blackpowder pistols though the US Mail get away with it how?

The answer is going to be given by those that are saying "OMG, DON'T DO IT!", probably, that they are licensed dealers, which has absolutely nothing to do with it because it is highly illegal for licensed dealers to mail items that require FFL involvement directly to a consumer (except for return of repaired firerarms). And you are correct, you can walk into any store such as you mentioned, buy these "antique firearms" directly off a shelf, usually sealed in plastic display hangers, take it to the cashier in the regular sales section and buy it along with your boots, coveralls, hats with exactly the same restrictions applied to each item - NONE! Toys R Us could sell these replicas, if they wanted to.

and buy them online with nothing more than a credit card, in the same order as your coveralls, hats and boots.

 

[nalioth]

barnetmill, I suggest you hit your "Home" key and carefully read this whole thread from the beginning.

Laws have been linked to and knowledgeable people have spoken.

 

[Smokin_Gun]

When ya mail it jus' answer their questions and don't add any info...insure it send it.
If they do ask say an antique (period)

 

[Fisherman_48768]

I finally shipped the replica via UPS, even had to teach the dip there about the legality of shipping a replica. Clerk had to make two calls to UPS central to get clarification, first call resulted in a no shipping allowed then I forced the matter and the clerk got a second opinion from the same central office. Then the clerk said well you learn something every day, all I could say was yea it's a sad day when the customer has to do the teaching.

For all of you saying to ship and shut up via USPS, as the lady Post master implied, if the gun turns up missing and even if you have it insured you won't collect and will be in trouble. Don't do it.

Now I'm on a mission, this postal policy is pure BS.

 

[deadin]

Do us all a favor and follow through on the complaint to the Postmaster General. Your local Postmaster needs remedial training on the Domestic Mailing Manual regulations. Maybe if enough of us have problems, the Boss might intervene.
I can't complain as my local PO is just fine and I have no problems mailing what is legal per the DMM.

 

[TimRB]

"Clerk had to make two calls to UPS central to get clarification..."

Was it a UPS Store? As near as I can tell, those guys (as opposed to UPS hubs) will universally refuse to ship a firearm, and, in fact, will wet their pants if you ask them to.

Tim

 

[Fisherman_48768]

TimRB: It was the Saginaw, Mi. UPS hub.