Maintaining modern firearms with old-world technology?

[NoirFan]

Let's imagine a far, far future scenario when humanity has lost all knowledge of modern science and reverted to a neo-medieval age. Suppose a future primitive blacksmith uncovers a functional modern gun like an AK47 or S&W revolver; could he maintain the weapon by replacing the parts as they wear out? Set the approximate tech level at Europe 900 AD: we have bloomery furnaces which produce fairly pure wrought iron, steel production is inconsistent, pattern-welding is commonplace, we can make iron wire for springs, we can cast copper but not iron, we can make black powder, and skilled labor is very cheap.

The real world analogue is a Pashtun gunsmith producing modern guns in the Khyber Pass or wherever, but that's not the same thing because he is working with premade industrial steels like truck springs and bar stock. What I'm thinking of is a true "from scratch" scenario.

Speaking as a non-metallurgist, I feel like it's possible if the gunsmith uses a LOT of meticulous labor to stand in for modern manufacturing precision. He would have to handwork replacement parts just right and of course wear would be greatly accelerated with softer iron parts. Bronze cartridge cases could be cast I think, and black powder charges would be OK in weaker chambers. The only real problem I can see is how to hand produce a rifled barrel. Maybe one could hammer out a perfectly flat sheet, then cut grooves into it before rolling it into a barrel shape? Any metal workers care to weigh in on this scenario?

 

[HoosierQ]

Watch "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court". Book by Mark Twain. Movie with Bing Crosby.

 

[pockets]

'A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court'
While I love Bing Crosby and the movie version....Read the book first!

If sort of thing interests you, try reading some of Harry Turtledove's alternate history books.
In 'The Guns of the South' they pretty much do this very thing. They try to create black powder AK47's in the Civil War period, from example's brought from South Africa of the future.
But I'm pretty sure you'll have cycling issues with gas operated auto-loaders and black powder.
I saw a TV show a couple years ago where they tried running a Benneli 12ga auto-loader with black powder cartridges. IIRC, It made it through 3 rounds before fouling to non-functionality.

 

[Beaux Nehr]

furthermore, why would they bother trying to make a kalashnikov clone, and not just take the basic concept and begin at musket type weapons?

 

[Wildbillz]

Several years ago one of the Survival mags of the time did an artical about reloading modern ammo with black powder. The auther ran half a dozen mags of it through an H&K91. I would hate to think what it would do to the gun but I guess it could work.

WB

 

[Murphy4570]

The reason why auto-loading or repeating rifles weren't common or practical until the invention of "smokeless" powders was because gunpowder is very corrosive and fouls internal parts very quickly. It isn't practical to use on such weapons.

It can be done of course, but maintenance would be a real bear of a chore. Stick with bolt or lever action mechanisms if you think you'll have to use home-made gunpowder in them. Saltpeter, charcoal, sulfur, and mix it!

 

[o Unforgiven o]

Take a look at this website, and you will see that 900ad is far too primitive a time. Maybe they could have made some small parts, but anything other than that would have been impossible.

http://armscollectors.com/gunhistorydates.htm

 

[NG VI]

You're describing the world of the Tripods Trilogy by John Christopher.

Sweet books.

 

[JustinJ]

"Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and things with... molecular structures."

Ash did alright.

 

[Deus Machina]

As far as materials go, 900 AD might manage. Nothing semi-auto will work, but your average Mosin Nagant might do okay and a particularly skilled smith may keep a reolver running.

This is, of course, taking into account the lower-powered rounds that would have to be used, and much more frequent repairs to things like springs and firing pins.

Crank the timeframe up a bit. Renaissance era, not as much of a problem.

Heck, imagine the field day da Vinci and his ilk would have with the opportunity to study the lockwork in your average S&W.

 

[BobTheTomato]

I would imagine the brass would be the hard part for the ammo. Also, I am not so sure that a blacksmith would be able to repair a revolver. The metalurgy of the time would leave parts with possible voids, cracks, ect.

 

[HoosierQ]

I made a joke of this earlier...sorry. But I think I disagree Bob on the smith comment. Medieval smiths, especially sword smiths who would presumably inherit gun smithing in this fantasy scenario, were absolutely the most technically skilled persons of the age. The sword of the middle ages was the most technically advanced product extant. They were pattern welded, differentially heat treated, etc. Steel would have been as good as it is today...carbon steel that is...if it was forged by a swordsmith...as opposed to a ferrier who shoes horses or a regular blacksmith who made other iron objects like hinges, nails, barrel staves, etc. The swordsmith was the rocket scientist of the day.

There is an impression that the Japanese make the best swords in the world...and thus always have. Well, that's probably true about today but that's because unlike Europe, they have worked hard to hold on to the tradition. In Europe, as soon as firearms were invented, all the work went that way and skilled swordsmithing was lost.

Summing up, a medieval swordsmith could have made any and all parts of a steel firearm (a rifled barrel is a real question I'll admit) and most of them would be as good in terms of fabrication as the parts we're using today in our firearms, although each one would be unique and would have to be extensively hand fitted...not the least bit unlike the skilled German smiths of Pennsylvania who made the best firearm of its age: the Pennsylvania or Kentucky rifle.

 

[mortablunt]

^ War swords were produced and used in Europe for a long time alongside guns. Guns first came about in the 1200's, so that's a few centuries of knight and guns coexisting. It took a very long time for guns to eclipse swords.

Now as for primitive maintenance of a modern gun... It would require quite a lot of time, effort, skill, and resources, but yet, it would be doable. Now the bigger question is how are they going to supply the ammo, lube, and mags? As was said earlier, a simple manual bolt or lever action would probably be fine, but a semi auto would be too much hassle except for a very wealthy noble, an a full auto, probably just an almost never fired ceremonial piece. Muzzle loaders would survive.

 

[NoirFan]

The reason why auto-loading or repeating rifles weren't common or practical until the invention of "smokeless" powders was because gunpowder is very corrosive and fouls internal parts very quickly. It isn't practical to use on such weapons.

Seems like gas-operated weapons would be most vulnerable to this, so they may be out. What about recoil-operated repeaters like 1911s?

Crank the timeframe up a bit. Renaissance era, not as much of a problem.

Yeah, with iron casting technology and consistent steel production this scenario becomes a bit too easy. That's why I picked Europe 900 AD with the added "cheat" of black powder production.

I would imagine the brass would be the hard part for the ammo.

Well early medieval smiths did incredibly intricate detail work on bronze ornaments and sword hilts so they could probably hand-make bronze casings. I am assuming that bronze is close enough to brass for this job.

Summing up, a medieval swordsmith could have made any and all parts of a steel firearm (a rifled barrel is a real question I'll admit) and most of them would be as good in terms of fabrication as the parts we're using today in our firearms, although each one would be unique and would have to be extensively hand fitted...not the least bit unlike the skilled German smiths of Pennsylvania who made the best firearm of its age: the Pennsylvania or Kentucky rifle.

I like that analogy, so basically you might have a mass-produced rifle evolving into a completely hand-fitted piece as parts are replaced over time.

Now the bigger question is how are they going to supply the ammo, lube, and mags?

Mags could be forged iron with steel springs, lube could be olive oil or animal fat, and ammo... damn! I forgot about primers! Could a medieval alchemist concoct some kind of primer through trial and error?