Malls and No Weapon signs

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Even though the signs hold no legal weight, I wonder if the mall was posted anyway? I have heard at least one claim online that it was...

"No guns" sign = "Rob me" and or "shoot the place up!"
 
As posted above, Utah has pretty much stayed silent on the issue. The signs aren't binding in any kind of statutory way, but they that doesn't mean the owner can't ask you to leave anyway. One day it will go to court, but until then...


The LDS church requests that its members do not carry to church, they haven't banned anything.

I'm pretty sure that invoking state law to prohibit carrying counts as banning.

http://www.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/v/in...nnel=9ae411154963d010VgnVCM1000004e94610aRCRD

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20040124/ai_n11434973
 
Concerning the VA Hospital; You'd need to treat as any other federal reservation. We can't carry on a military base or in a federal building in ANY state, Utah laws aside.:scrutiny:
 
Thanks Ken. I was more curious about the legality of leaving the gun in my truck while I was inside since the whole property is posted.

Biker
 
I treat signs such as being synonymous to signs telling me to go run out into traffic on the freeway.

I ignore them for the safety of my family and myself.
 
The LDS church may have invoked law, but they do not post their buildings.
It is not required that they do post a sign - the BCI listing is in fact a legal posting that gives the ban legal status that is unique to churches in Utah.
 
Picture of the mall's sign

A picture of the sign at Trolley Square Mall was posted in L&P, Concealed-gun debate heats up after mall shooting.

Click here to see a copy of the sign posted at the Trolley Square Mall. You will notice that the prohibition is in relatively small print and it is listed at #10. I have been in that mall many, many times and I have NEVER even seen that stupid sign. It obviously is not as important to the owners as the ban on skateboards since it is posted much lower in the list. Using refuse receptacles is even more important than prohibiting CCW.

If you look at the very last prohibition you will notice that the guy who took home video of the incident also violated the property owners' rules.

I am wondering if the owners of this property will reconsider CCW prohibition considering what has happened. Of course, we all know that sign has no meaning, but after the events of a couple of days ago it will probably get some attention.

Biker, I go to the VA hospital in SLC a couple of times a month. It is sad that the veterans who have fought for the U.S. cannot be trusted to carry on that property. The rules concerning Federal Reservations not withstanding, I guess they figure there are too many vets with PTSD going there that might wig out and shoot up the place.
 
Yup, give a man an M-16 for a few years but throw 'im in jail for putting a handgun under his truck seat. Don't make a lot of sense to me.

Biker
 
No, the business is not legally obligated to "protect" you if it prohibits CCW on its premises. Nor is it obligated to make you feel warm and fuzzy or boost your self-esteem if mommy failed to do that. Their obligation is to abide by applicable codes and regulations to ensure a reasonable reduced-hazard environment for places of public accommodation. Things like fire exits, trip hazards, proper lighting, non-slip floors, etc.

You have a right to own a gun, just as you have a right to own a dog. A business owner can decide you may not bring your dog into his place of business, or enter barefoot, or act in a rowdy manner. Some don't want you to bring your gun in. That's life. The legal ramifications of that vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Check the law. In Ohio, carrying in a posted business is a violation of the terms of the CCW permit. Doing so could result in you being asked to leave the premises (trespassing if you don't) and could conceivably jeopardize your permit.

K
 
I have no problem at all with business posting "no carry" signs in their businesses. It's their right to do so. However, if I were in charge of permitting, I'd ensure the following:

1. Sings must be of legal size, type and configuration (similar to texas 30-06 signs).

2. Signs would be available only from a government office

3. Signs would have to be applied for. Application would include Reason for signeage, Letter of recommendation from 3 neighboring businesses, proof of business and liability insurance, copies of all applicable business licenses.

4. Application must be made in person by manager or owner. Applicatee must provide notarized copies of ID along with application. A change in management will require that a new application be submitted. An application fee of $150 will be charged per application.

5. If approved, No CCW signs will be delivered to the business within 90 days of date of application.

6. Signs must be placed conspicuously at the front of the store.

7. Signs will be eight feet wide by twelve feet long.
 
Here in Washington, the signs are similar to those in Utah. That is, if you ignore the sign, you aren't breaking the law. If you ignore the sign and get caught carrying inside the posted premises, the owner may ask you to leave. You still haven't broken the law. If, after the owner asks you to leave, you remain on the premises, and are still there when the police show up, then and only then have you broken a law -- misdemeanor trespass.

Personally, I don't like to give money to people who don't want me able to protect myself, so I generally obey the (very, very rare) signs. But I don't stand at the door and squint at all the itsy-bitsy rules; if it's not posted in print large enough for me to read it easily, I figure it's there for the lawyers and not for me.

pax
 
I have been in that mall many, many times and I have NEVER even seen that stupid sign.
Neither have I. But then, on reflection, we usually enter the mall through a store rather than a "mall entrance". In any event, I tend to ignore signs such as this since I don't plan on skateboarding in the mall or not wearing shoes, etc., and I know that a sign prohibiting CCW is meaningless in Utah.
 
Their obligation is to abide by applicable codes and regulations to ensure a reasonable reduced-hazard environment for places of public accommodation. Things like fire exits, trip hazards, proper lighting, non-slip floors, etc.

See, here's the thing. Posting no-guns signs makes an INCREASED hazard environment. Simple - if a bad guy/psycho is REALLY suicidal, then he'd just off himself, or arrange a "suicide-by-cop." Some do.

SOME want to take as many innocent people down WITH them before going out in their "blaze of glory." What better place than a place that YOU KNOW FULL AND WELL THAT THE "GOOD GUYS" (most of 'em) WILL BE UNARMED??? :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

I don't say that posted businesses are infringing on my 2A rights. I do say that they are endangering their employees and customers by creating an environment that is MORE ALLURING to criminals, from simple robbers up to the Trolley Square psychos! :cuss:
 
Jamz

Oh, yes! Outstanding!

1. Signs must be of legal size, type and configuration (similar to texas 30-06 signs).

2. Signs would be available only from a government office
Of course. That's where "rights" are dispensed.

3. Signs would have to be applied for. Application would include Reason for signeage, Letter of recommendation from 3 neighboring businesses, proof of business and liability insurance, copies of all applicable business licenses.
Because, after all, your prohibition might impact neighboring businesses. And we need to make sure that you have some kind of credible claim for your request.

4. Application must be made in person by manager or owner. Applicatee must provide notarized copies of ID along with application. A change in management will require that a new application be submitted. An application fee of $150 will be charged per application.
Hey, wait a minute -- no BACKGROUND CHECK? You would issue a "no guns" sign to a felon??

5. If approved, No CCW signs will be delivered to the business within 90 days of date of application.
And no complaining! You guys are already a nuisance, and you're lucky we even LET you have a sign.

6. Signs must be placed conspicuously at the front of the store.
Right in front of the door is recommended. It's a safety thing.

7. Signs will be eight feet wide by twelve feet long.
Excellent!

:D

You forgot that signs need to be renewed every 4 years.

You forgot that, if your store should open more branches, you don't get a break, and have to apply separately for each sign permit.

And I'm really skeptical about that "no background check" thing. I think a stronger law is needed.

And fingerprints. You forgot the fingerprints. And a photo. And your home address, which is publicly listed.

Did I forget anything?

Oh, yeah: "Here's your sign!"
 
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Well done jamz. Seriously, a cyber standing "O." :evil:
At least we can rest easy knowing we've done our part to end mall violence. This will stop it right? jamz, ArfinG?... Guys... This will end the madness, right.... Guys, tell me... NOOOOOoooooo.....
 
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PAX, does that go for posted hospitals in WA too? I have to go visit a friend tomorrow who just had a baby! at Swedish, and I'm just curious if I can carry?
 
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41

9.41.300
Weapons prohibited in certain places — Local laws and ordinances — Exceptions — Penalty.

(1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon:

(a) The restricted access areas of a jail, or of a law enforcement facility, or any place used for the confinement of a person (i) arrested for, charged with, or convicted of an offense, (ii) held for extradition or as a material witness, or (iii) otherwise confined pursuant to an order of a court, except an order under chapter 13.32A or 13.34 RCW. Restricted access areas do not include common areas of egress or ingress open to the general public;

(b) Those areas in any building which are used in connection with court proceedings, including courtrooms, jury rooms, judge's chambers, offices and areas used to conduct court business, waiting areas, and corridors adjacent to areas used in connection with court proceedings. The restricted areas do not include common areas of ingress and egress to the building that is used in connection with court proceedings, when it is possible to protect court areas without restricting ingress and egress to the building. The restricted areas shall be the minimum necessary to fulfill the objective of this subsection (1)(b).

In addition, the local legislative authority shall provide either a stationary locked box sufficient in size for pistols and key to a weapon owner for weapon storage, or shall designate an official to receive weapons for safekeeping, during the owner's visit to restricted areas of the building. The locked box or designated official shall be located within the same building used in connection with court proceedings. The local legislative authority shall be liable for any negligence causing damage to or loss of a weapon either placed in a locked box or left with an official during the owner's visit to restricted areas of the building.

The local judicial authority shall designate and clearly mark those areas where weapons are prohibited, and shall post notices at each entrance to the building of the prohibition against weapons in the restricted areas;

(c) The restricted access areas of a public mental health facility certified by the department of social and health services for inpatient hospital care and state institutions for the care of the mentally ill, excluding those facilities solely for evaluation and treatment. Restricted access areas do not include common areas of egress and ingress open to the general public;

(d) That portion of an establishment classified by the state liquor control board as off-limits to persons under twenty-one years of age; or

(e) The restricted access areas of a commercial service airport designated in the airport security plan approved by the federal transportation security administration, including passenger screening checkpoints at or beyond the point at which a passenger initiates the screening process. These areas do not include airport drives, general parking areas and walkways, and shops and areas of the terminal that are outside the screening checkpoints and that are normally open to unscreened passengers or visitors to the airport. Any restricted access area shall be clearly indicated by prominent signs indicating that firearms and other weapons are prohibited in the area.

*****

So it is not illegal to conceal carry into a hospital in Washington state, regardless of the signage on the doors, as long as you don't enter the loony ward. If you get caught, they'll toss you out and you won't exactly be welcomed back with open arms, however.

pax
 
It's an interesting situation. Actually, it is immoral to be put in to a position of having to make a choice to either be legal or be safe.

Deep concealment is something to consider for those who decide to be safe and take the legal risk.

I have a couple of these holsters. I can't carry a full-size gun (but I've seen others do it), but a compact works just fine in it.

http://smartcarry.com/
 
No weapons malls

There are 2 things you can do:
[1] Go through a door that does not say "no weapons".
[2] Shop somewhere else!
 
Guns where we want them

In Arizona if a business does not want a person carrying they must post it. If it is not posted or you don't see it :evil: the worst that can happen is they can ask you to leave until your not carrying anymore. I have a movie theater just down from my house and have gone there about once a month (more in the summer, it's HOT!) for better than two years. The other day a friend noticed that on the glass doors, at the bottom right hand corner was a little see through sticker (the ghostbusters with a horribly drawn firearm). I have yet to see it but haven't decided on my course of action.

As for places denying your right to protect yourself and being held legally responsible. I heard about two years ago about a pending lawsuit to that effect but have yet to hear any more about it and can't find any info.

Also per the
The LDS church requests that its members do not carry to church, they haven't banned anything.
that must be a Utah thing. Here in Az many do carry in Church. I've never seen or heard of any request not to carry in church. Again in Arizona this would be treated much the same way as a posted or non posted sign. You could be requested to leave you gun at home but nothing legally would come of it.
 
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