Man stabbed the intruder, most probably he'd be jailed

[Medusa]

Can't give the URl, as most highroaders can't read the language, anyway:
fellow named Aleksei, 28 yo, pillaged a car, houseowner called the police, but since these guys didn't find the house they weren't around in time. BG saw that and grabbed the fire ex to beat teh door down, wasn't able to and then smashed the window and climbed in. Man had 2 little kids and a wife at the house so he was in fear for them and stabbed the BG several times, paramedics weren't able to save the BG.

But guess what, our legal system is corrupt, criminals have higher rights than civilians (you can't kill the BG unless there's reasonable doubt of bodily harm - hate the "reasonable" as it is easily questionable, the once-victim is second-guessed and ends up being a criminal himself, it has been so on several times). So most probably this guy is in a lot of trouble and most probably be jailed. And what people say - why kill, he should have just injured the BG, respect the other's lives, BG got killed for revenge, bad homeowner etc (you can guess, what would have happened to a pretty wife and youngsters).

I'm most ashamed of my country, it's goverment and it's legal system, where civilians get canned. Admire the US, at least parts where the nocturnal intruder ends in a coffin and people have more than theoretical rights to defend themselves. Here Alekseis, Stjopas, Evgenis and other unwelcome russkies etc are the so-called "victims of society", misunderstood youths and so. Why are their rights higher than their's victims?

Rant off.

 

[mcg-doc]

Post the link anyway. Some of us, including the forum owner, read some russki

 

[Medusa]

Sorry, no russkie, all in estonian I'll see what I can do.

ADDED:Ok, some more time. Sorry, still no link in other than native language. Why is this guy in a lot of trouble? The law is very strict in this matter. The guy must prove he was under attack and that killing the bastard was nessesary.
You know, law here doesn't consider threaths (such as waving a knife, yelling killing threats etc) as an actual assault, so using deadly force, or any force, is not justified. If BG pulls a knife, waves it threatingly and threats to kill, you cannot "defend" yourself, any attacks makes the BG a victim and you a criminal. And when attacked, one must not do to the BG extensivly more damage than the BG can do, so one must use "reasonable force" when defending him/herself. So if the BG just broke in and didn't actually assault anyone, the homeowner gets murder charge. If the family of BG gets better lawyer than the homeowner, then the murder is a done deal.

Defending youself is a questionable thing here, or defending others. Examples:
- cop pulled a gun to defend himself from a rabid dog, nearby kid gets a scratch, most probably from a piece of rock thrown up by the bullet. Guy gets charged and loses his right to own guns and the job.
- guy and his wife hear a girl screaming outside for help - rape, guy grabs the gun and goes out to check it. Then the girl says there's no trouble and later girl testifies in PD that they were just hanging out when a lunatic ran out and threatened them with gun, eventually guy gets canned.
- NG soldier steps in a street robbery (in front of a supermarket), defending an elderly woman, during the events grabs a gun. Nearby security guy grabs the good guy's gun hand and gets shot in the guts. Eventually the NG guy gets jailed and must pay the security guy a million. Wonder why the sec. guy didn't stop the robber?

Happy example of law - guy kills 6 people, just for the kick of it, and gets 8 years in jail, since he was below 18 at the time.

Edited: PC added and not PC stuff removed

 

[thumper723]

If it was in Latvian, I could help, but I'm a tad slow in translation.

How is the weather there right now?

 

[ElTacoGrande]

What are Estonian gun laws like? Can people own or carry guns? I notice that Estonia has the unfortuante distinction of having among the highest murder rates in Europe, higher than the US murder rate.

 

[LAR-15]

Is your country a member of the EU?

 

[Standing Wolf]

...our legal system is corrupt, criminals have higher rights than civilians...

That's a very popular attitude with criminals and their political protectors the world over.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Can't give the URl, as most highroaders can't read the language, anyway:

...

Sorry, still no link in other than native language.

Dude, native language URL addresses will still work. As for not reading the language, that is not a problem. There are a buttload of online translators to help with the translation.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=translate+estonian+to+english&btnG=Google+Search

 

[Medusa]

http://www.postimees.ee/250406/esileht/siseuudised/199272.php

Is your country a member of the EU?

for a year

What are Estonian gun laws like? Can people own or carry guns? I notice that Estonia has the unfortuante distinction of having among the highest murder rates in Europe, higher than the US murder rate.

Owning a gun is quite regulated. If I got my CZ, i had to go to PD to apply for the exams (knowing laws and shooting), after positive result I had to get to medical examination - eyes, mental state etc, then they processes it for a month (can get up to 3 months) and then I got the permission to go to the gun shop and buy me a weapon (which type and amount is written on permission, i made it for 1 pistol). If i want another gun, the whole deal must be made again. If i want another handgun the exams and medical is considered as passed, if rifle then i must start all over, starting with exams
Guns are expensive, CZ 75 runs on 800-900 bucks, NIB, P226 is close to 1300-1400 bucks, cheapest .22LR rifles (IZ) are at least 300 bucks.
Guns must be unloaded at home, in safe, with ammo in separate locked box in safe. When carrying, the gun must be concealed and pipe must be empty on semi-autos.
As beforementioned, laws are strict, limits of justified self-defense are quite shady, mostly depending on the will of court. As in this case, is the breaking in at night by stoned guy considered as an actual assault or not, from this the future of the homeowner depend.
High murder rate comes from the legal limitations of SD, soft law, police/firemen/paramedics have serious shortage of manpower (police was cut back by serius amount several years ago, and now have around 15-20% shortage). Oh, ordinary cop/fireman gets 400-500 USD per month.
If someone kills a criminal in SD situation, the good guy gets higher charge than in situation where criminal kills. It is usual that a criminal-murderer gets couple of years (and even that of partial sitting - sits a year and must not commit a crime during a couple of years, or get jailed again). You see, there's not much defence from criminals by law. "right thing to do" is usually of lower value, than "juridically correct".

Weather is nice, gets warm at last, is mostly over 10 C (in winter it was -25 C ). It's a cold year.

 

[White Horseradish]

Ya know, I was just about to commiserate until I got to this little bit

unwelcome russkies etc

I'm sure Estonians are white and fuzzy and commit no crimes whatsoever.

 

[Medusa]

Horseradish, as I wrote, most of the criminals are of that origin. There's plenty of our own, but the majority is still them. And as I noted, I know several kulturny russians, problematic part is the nekulturny ones.

Besides, people from russia have almost always been bad news throughout history and russians in Estonia are considered occupants. There are also russian-speaking estonians. that's a big difference.

If the guy gets jailed it just adds more fuel to the antipathy.

You in US haven't had your country fought over several times and occupied.

But still, thought over and edited the text to be more PC.

 

[gunsmith]

HI

что заставляет Вас думать, что Амриканс не может понять русский язык?
Современная технология предоставляет нам интернет-переводчиков, это легко
понимать!

Не позволяйте идиотам делать Вас несчастными!

 

[Medusa]

Hey gunsmith, in russian i found basicly nothing. If something happens in this part of world everybody thinks - Russia. We're no part of Russia, whatever you think. I know some highroaders read russian (but if you care to check the link, there's nothing in it), but this argument will drift from the raison d'etre of the thread.

It's simply most shameful and plain stupid thing to convict a man for defending his family and house. If the guy gets jailed, the criminals have another moral boost. If guy ends up right, then local remfs start to whine how poor boy got killed, discrimination as it is.

 

[db_tanker]

Very sobering...especially when you look at it from the perspective that the US is slowly heading for that very situation you speak of Medusa.

D

 

[Medusa]

Tanker, it would be a shame if US ends in same legal state as we are here, if i'd ever happen to migrate to some gun/SD friendly state.

Last year here a guy was out in cafe with his GF, 3 drunk punks made a hit on her and guy standed up. Later these 3 punks came back to revenge and in the following fight the good guy grabbed a snow shovel and knocked one out (bastard died later). Good guy got convicted and 8 years, using the shovel wasn't considered to be "appropriate" self-defence weapon, thus making the guy a maniac who planned to kill one "poor misunderstood boy" in a very violent way.

 

[Spot77]

I think the Maryland Atttorney General reads the Estonian laws quite frequently and insists upon emulating them......

 

[beerslurpy]

Dont give him the wrong idea. States are switching to excplicitly guarantee freedom from blame for people who use deadly force against attackers. Florida started it last October, a few states have followed already.

If I am attacked or see someone else attacked, I can kill a guy in the street, in my home, in a restaurant, anywhere that I am without trespassing. So basically as long as you arent trespassing or committing a crime, you are in the clear using self defense in Florida. If it is questionable circumstances, you will probably be given to grand jury and possibly put on trial, but usually the cops will just let you go around here unless the SD was questionable. Juries here are very understanding of self defense and will generally let you off regardless of situation if it really was self defense.

In this area of the US it goes generally:
You commit self defense.
Police show up, see what happened.
If obvious good shoot, usually let you go, take gun, return it later.
If not obvious good shoot, refer case to district attorney.
He decides to refer to grand jury or let you go.
If he sends to grand jury, they decide if you should be tried or let go.
If grand jury puts you on trial, you get lawyers and judge and jury.
Once you are cleared you should get the used gun back. Some anti-gun areas will play silly games and claim it is evidence.

If it goes to trial they get one shot only. If you are not guilty, you can go out and say "yes I did it!" and show all the evidence and they can still not put you on trial again. Although probably they would get you for perjury or something else.

 

[LAR-15]

Any chance of getting your legislators to pass a reasonable self defense law?

Take Care

 

[Medusa]

Any chance of getting your legislators to pass a reasonable self defense law?

Hmmm...... No. legislators usually gives out laws that makes people moan&groan.

There is a chance that law that regulates gun owning and aquiring is easening up a bit, rumors are that the silencer will be allowed for limited use (in ranges), same with lasers. Currently silencers are forbidden and laser is near impossible to get (I must write an application to the grand chief of police, he maybe gives me the permission to go to my local PD to apply for aquiring the laser, local PD gives me the permission to buy the laser, same story with conversion kits).

I'm already planning to get the hell outta in a decade, move out with my family, maybe to Switzerland, or all the way to US.

beerslurpy, this legal defence is most admirable, shows that the state still cares more than theoretically.

 

[ebd10]

Hey Medusa:
I'm sorry for the plight that your country is in. You sound like a stand up guy. Let's see.....you're pro gun, pro self-defense, aspiring gun owner, heck, why not move here? We can use all of the pro-gun people we can get!

 

[White Horseradish]

Well, you can always console yourself that however bad your gunlaws are, Russian ones are worse, what with pistols being totally prohibited and a 5 year shotgun ownership requirement for owning a rifle.

 

[Medusa]

Well, you can always console yourself that however bad your gunlaws are, Russian ones are worse, what with pistols being totally prohibited and a 5 year shotgun ownership requirement for owning a rifle.

And people in Africa live much poorer than we do. There's no meaning to flatter yourself with thought that things can be worse, important is to deal with the matter now and here, ie how reasonable are gun/SD laws in your country, considering the background (ethics, needs, amount of violence etc).

 

[Carl N. Brown]

3 punks came back to revenge.....

In Tennessee an attack by superior numbers can be construed
by the "reasonable person" as a potentially lethal attack, justifying
lethal force in self defense.

 

[Mk VII]

Plenty of unregistered guns over there. Seen a few myself.
About a third of the population is ethnic Russian (or Ukrainian), transplanted there in the Stalinist years. The Estonians don't like them much.

 

[P95Carry]

Perhaps the saddest and most simple thing missing - and this applies to a degree in many places also like Aus' UK etc - is the simple parameter of ''I was in fear for my life'' - that makes things so simple. All the ''reasonable'' stuff mentioned is so open to convoluted interpretation, the good guy is never gonna win

Self defence should always be a given right whatever the means used to achieve it - the victim it seems is ever more ostracized and stigmatized - the criminal getting off lightly.

It all appears to be little short of ''good guy persecution''.