Man survives 21 gunshot wounds: Placement, placement, placement!

[03Shadowbob]

Many moons ago we shot a guy 17 times with 9x19 ball (issued ammo) as he was reaching for his ankle holster. He did not die and fought the whole time even after in cuffs. He does have permanent damage as his femur, knee cap, tibia and pelvis were all shattered. In addition to those he was hit numerous times in the chest, arm and buttocks.
Sometimes, it's just not your time to die. It was not that guy's time that early morning. Placement is everything but sometimes it just doesn't matter.

 

[rainbowbob]

Just wait for it...

"Angel Alvarez received $3.2 million dollars today for injuries sustained when he was shot 21 times by plain clothes police who failed to properly identify themselves. Mr Alverez was engaged in a discussion with an old friend when the police detectives inexplicably fired more then 40 rounds at the victim."

 

[Old Guy]

A Patrol in a Belfast Hospital comprised of a RUC Constable, and a Parra, were alerted to the fact that a robbery was taking place at the Post Office, by a nurse.

They listened to the slap of running boots, Des was pushed back by the Parra?
Des did not think he was in the Para's, more than likely was SAS.

The Soldier was carrying a Browning Hi Power, he stepped around the corner, fired two shots, both center chest shots, one died right there, the other in the O.R.

Brit Mil Spec 9mm Sub Gun Ammo. Through and through. Range 10m.

 

[A and O]

Two Thoughts.

1.) Cool, self healing targets

2.) He survived the 21+ bullets only to receive the death penalty or life in prison.

Don't know that I would want to survive being shot 21+ times.

 

[shotgunjoel]

Maybe they would have had better shot placement if they were issued guns that you could actually pull the trigger on. What is the pull on NYPD Glocks, 12lbs?

 

[Carbonator]

New NYPD officers are allowed to select one of three 9mm service pistols configured in double-action only (DAO): the SIG P226 DAO, Smith & Wesson model 5946, and Glock 19. All are modified to a 12-pound (53 N) trigger pull. All of the service pistols utilize hollow point bullets, as do most law enforcement service weapons in the United States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Police_Department#Service_pistols

 

[lobo9er]

......,,,,,,,

 

[ForumSurfer]

Wow, the opinions of some people are really out there. That line about the witness really stopped me in my tracks.

"Never once did you hear, 'Freeze,'" Shariff Spencer told the New York Times' Trymaine Lee and Colin Moynihan. "Never once did you hear, 'Stop.' Never once did you hear, 'N.Y.P.D.'"

Doe he really expect officers to say that when a man who just shot someone turns his weapon on them?

 

[Jimmy10mm]

I'm interested in finding out if the witnesses are lying. As reported in the NY Times, a number of witnesses say the victim and the alleged shooter were fist fighting and unarmed.

 

[Carbonator]

I wonder if this incident will spark a caliber change to .40 for the NYPD.

I was a jurror on a trial which included an individual being shot approx 12 times with a 9mm. He was able to keep running, get in his car and then collapsed and died. It was likely a drug deal gone bad, no cops involved. I do think 9mm is a decent cartridge but I hear instances like these and thus prefer the .40 (.45 has too small capacity for multiple targets) for my carry system.

 

[jlbpa]

Best to have a rifle when the shooting starts. Friend asked why my 22-250 was still in the car a couple weeks after I had been called on to shoot a ground hog. I told him it was so I'd never have to say "hold on while I go get my rifle" .

Not likely anyone ever survived 21 shots with a rifle.

 

[Old Shooter]

Sounds like they could have gotten better results just beating the guy with a stick.

I know it's all about shot placement but how did they manage to put 21 rounds in all the wrong places?

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I definatly blame a lack of training in this one.

 

[Manco]

But...but...apart from that hoary shot placement mantra we keep hearing about over and over these days , what about STOPPING POWER?

I wonder if this incident will spark a caliber change to .40 for the NYPD.

Or maybe their shot placement would improve overall rather than degrade with .22 LR.

 

[Jimmy10mm]

Their placement wasn't all bad. Tonight's report in the NY Times here says that the dead man was killed by a police round to the heart. That being the only one of five entry wounds that didn't go through his body. It had polygonal rifling so it couldn't have come from the snub nose found at the scene. The wounded man denies that he had a gun.

 

[JellyJar]

No one has to yell Stop, Freeze, Police or any such thing if the BG is already shooting at you!!!! :banghead:

If a misplaced police round did kill the victim unintentionally then perhaps it would be a good argument to go for pistols with an easier trigger pull? But then the NYPD cops would probably start shooting themselves in the leg or something.

 

[-eaux-]

your pistol's purpose is to fight your way back to your shotgun.
your shotgun's purpose is to fight your way back to your rifle, which you never should have layed down in the first place.
pistols are pistols and rifles are rifles.
in the grand scheme of things, a pistol wound is a deterrant. to rely upon a pistol-caliber wound to stop the BG is wishful thinking. be it .22rf or .45acp.
if you drop a BG with either, you got lucky.
practice and shot placement are penultimate when it comes to trusting your life or that of your family to a sidearm. when the rubber meets the road, you'd better have as much trust in your nerve and practice as you have in your sidearm, because a pistol-caliber wound is very rarely a manstopper.

 

[Wild Bunch]

People have already mentioned caliber and shot placement, I think the real issue here is how big a settlement this scumbag is going to collect from the city. I only wish it would come directly from Bloombergs Bucks......

Now if NYPD was using 10MM we wouldn't even be having this discussion

 

[ScratchnDent]

I imagine it would take a lot more range time than the majority of those officers get to master a 12 lb trigger.

 

[Kentucky_Rifleman]

I'm only guessing, but the only reason I can fathom for having an issue weapon with a 12 lb trigger pull is to slow down the semi-auto fire rate. Can anyone confirm this? If the NYPD is determined to reduce officers' rates of fire, why not just go back to wheelguns?

This sounds suspiciously like the PR-driven department mandates from the 70s and 80s when revolvers were standard issue for many departments, but officers were forbidden from using magnum ammunition.

That didn't make much sense either. The argument there was that the magnums were A. deadlier and B. more likely to over-penetrate, generating civilian casualties.

Surely some of this crap could be avoided by better training. I realize that a gunfight is nothing like blowing holes in silhouettes, but 21+ non-lethal shots seems pretty slipshod to me.

KR

 

[dec41971]

Just wait for it...

"Angel Alvarez received $3.2 million dollars today for injuries sustained when he was shot 21 times by plain clothes police who failed to properly identify themselves. Mr Alverez was engaged in a discussion with an old friend when the police detectives inexplicably fired more then 40 rounds at the victim."

No he wont. I was a NY resident for 11yrs, and trust me, he will get $ZERO, $ZILCH. He had a gun, was involved in a gun fight with another guy. The guys who get money are usually completely unarmed. First of all having a gun in NY city, even a legal one, would convict you before a word was said. The cops, the public, everyone is anti over there. You wont find a harsher jury anywhere. "Oh, he had a gun.....GUILTY!". And besides this guy is a scumbags with a long rap sheet.

Another thing, not disparaging LEO, but NY city cops shooting innocent bystanders or each other is not that uncommon. They have horrible record. My theory? They don't practice until they have to use it. Why you ask? Because they have to buy their own stuff for range sessions. You would think such a huge city has top notch marksmanship in their police force, and you would be rather wrong. And for all the stupid anti-2A laws in the city, you'd think the crooks have no guns, but you'd be surprised at how many illegal guns are in criminal private hands. You can buy one at most every dark alley in the city, forget about Bloomberg's claim they are all from Virginia gun shows. Its laughable. As you can see, the cops were there from another shooting just down the street to the North. Its pathetic, you can't even legally carry peper spray in NY city. Peper spray for crying out loud. Most anything you might call a weapon or construe to be one is baned. The general public is easy pickins for criminals, because the only people they really disarm is the law abiding public.

 

[Rail Driver]

...which you never should have layed down in the first place.

So you concealed carry a rifle on a daily basis eh? How's that working out for ya?

In re: the rest of the thread...

We've got some bloodthirsty high-roaders don't we? Self healing targets? Very amusing, I got a chuckle. How would you feel if the idiot criminal was your brother?

I'm not condoning these guys actions by any means, but regardless of the situation there is a reason for due process, and if I'm not mistaken I don't recall the judge and jury from these guys' trial posting in this thread.

 

[KingHack]

To call him a lucky guy is an understatement. You gotta wonder how 21 shots can miss major arteries.

 

[oldfool]

not having been there, trying hard not to jump to any conclusions
other than stay out of NY, which I was already real inclined to do anyhow

still... that's a lot of cops on scene mighty quick, several in "plainclothes", does not sound like your average family picnic

gosh, that's a lot of folks shooting firing on one (?) target
nobody can really say if hits on any/all others were 100% "unintentional" or not, re: the whoops factor

gosh, that's a lot of rounds fired
gosh, that's a lot of misses
gosh, that's a lot of poor hits

somebody said 21 misses... almost sounds a little bit more like 40+ "misses"
as a matter of idle speculation, might be that 12# trigger pull DAOs are a tad less than optimal

but caliber would seem to be the least relevant part of the story
even if they could barely manage 50% "hits" out of more than 40 shots, and had all been using 22 rimfire, somebody should have been able to put ONE into a stopping spot, to the effect that somebody could decide to stop shooting now (whether the guy lived or not)

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

This is a bit crass and crude, but larger holes let the target bleed out faster. THAT would be the argument for a larger caliber guns. The bad guy would have just STOPPED sooner, and maybe have had to been shot less times. However, larger guns might have been harder for marginal shooters to use and qualify with. Poorly trained cops and possibly substandard weapons are a compromise that NYC appears to have to live with.